Edward Cullen #6

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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby The Dark Knight » Sun Aug 30, 2009 5:34 pm

holdingoutforjacob wrote:I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. A villain is someone who is doing all those things to innocents.

Because, my friend, if you count everyone who hurts people intending to do bad things as evil, you count many heroes in that too. Batman, for one. Most comic book heroes. And many very good, very brave men and women who defend us on a day-to-day basis, such as police officers and members of the military.

The police officer who shoots the criminal in the hostage situation is evil? A villain? Because essentially it's the same thing. The hostage taker is intending to do harm to innocent people. Edward only killed those who were planning on doing harm to innocent people.


An evil act is an evil act regardless of the reasons. No free pass on things, having been there, I see it that way. The midigating circumstances are only to what level that will scar you.
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Sun Aug 30, 2009 8:04 pm

That's a pretty closed-minded and narrow way of looking at it, IMO, but if that's the way you wanna see the world, it's up to you.

I don't think that killing rapists and murderers is evil. I don't think it's necessarily the right thing to do, and neither did Edward, since he stopped.
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby The Dark Knight » Sun Aug 30, 2009 8:11 pm

holdingoutforjacob wrote:That's a pretty closed-minded and narrow way of looking at it, IMO, but if that's the way you wanna see the world, it's up to you.

I don't think that killing rapists and murderers is evil. I don't think it's necessarily the right thing to do, and neither did Edward, since he stopped.


I don't have a problem with what Edward did at all, but two evil acts don't make a good act, they just make 2 evil acts...No Free pass. Actually it's very open minded and very clearing to allow things to be as they are not how we would like them...exactly as they are with no personal spin doctoring to cloud things...rather liberating...

I used this quote before, "Why put off killen a guy today when your just going to have to kill him tomorrow."
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Sun Aug 30, 2009 8:14 pm

I don't know what that quote is trying to prove to me...

But what makes you so sure that your interpretation is "how things are"?
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby The Dark Knight » Sun Aug 30, 2009 8:20 pm

holdingoutforjacob wrote:I don't know what that quote is trying to prove to me...

But what makes you so sure that your interpretation is "how things are"?


Have you ever killed someone before? That would give you a real understanding of what I mean....
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Sun Aug 30, 2009 8:24 pm

So because I haven't actually killed someone my opinion can't possibly be worth as much as yours? That's probably not what you meant, but it's how it came off.

I don't think that has so much to do with this. You said Edward was a villain because he'd killed before. What he did was an act of evil, maybe, but I don't think it makes him a villain.
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby bac » Sun Aug 30, 2009 8:35 pm

This is interesting conversation. So motivation plays no part in whether someone is evil or not?

I personally believe that killing another person is wrong. At the same time, I believe that killing a person in self defense, in battle, as legal punishment, is not considered murder. Do I wish that no one ever had to be killed? Yes. Do I wish that people wouldn't murder each other? Yes. However, humans are human. They make mistakes and have to live with the consequences of those mistakes.

Edward killed. Edward murdered. He was killing people before they made the "mistake" or did the "evil" that he wanted to stop. Have any of you seen "Minority Report"? If not, then oh well, but this concept makes me think of it. Those people still had a choice which Edward stopped before it happened. And, there are other ways to stop people without killing them. It was just his way of justifying his human feeding. It was still murder in the moral sense.

The Dark Knight said=
An evil act is an evil act regardless of the reasons.

I believe this to be true. However, the consequences of the act may be different. So, killing someone is killing someone. However someone who acted in self defense will receive a different lawful consequence than someone who killed someone out of revenge. Also, the personal consequences may be different. The guilt associated with a murder may be different than the guilt associated with self defense. And, if you'll let me go there, the moral consequences are different. God will judge someone who is in the military and defending his country differently than he will judge a cold blooded murderer.
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Sun Aug 30, 2009 8:41 pm

But wrong and evil are two VERY different things. All evil things are wrong, but not all wrong things are evil.

Obviously I'm not saying it was okay for Edward to kill those people, but to classify him as evil, as a villain, is simply unfair. We also need to remember that humans are his "natural food source." Is the lion evil for killing the gazelle?
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby bac » Sun Aug 30, 2009 8:51 pm

holdingoutforjacob wrote:But wrong and evil are two VERY different things. All evil things are wrong, but not all wrong things are evil.

Obviously I'm not saying it was okay for Edward to kill those people, but to classify him as evil, as a villain, is simply unfair. We also need to remember that humans are his "natural food source." Is the lion evil for killing the gazelle?



I totally agree. Not every wrong is evil. And, I do not feel that Edward was evil. But, I don't know that I would put him on the same level as a lion and humans on the same level as a gazelle. I understand what you are saying about "natural food source", but I don't feel that I can make that comparison with vampires. That's just me, probably because I am the gazelle.
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby The Dark Knight » Mon Aug 31, 2009 2:59 am

Lots to reply to...I'll try to connect the dots for us all...

by holdingoutforjacob So because I haven't actually killed someone my opinion can't possibly be worth as much as yours? That's probably not what you meant, but its how it came off


Your Opinion HOFJ is valid. However your breath of knowledge on the subject is wanting. It will be impossible for me to convey to you the depth of what that act does to someone. I'm sorry it is not possible to relate it to at all. Either you have or you haven't and with that I leave you with this thought, I am glad and sincerely hope you never get to understand what I am trying to say.

by holdingoutforjacob I don't think that has so much to do with this. You said Edward was a villain because he'd killed before. What he did was an act of evil, maybe, but I don't think it makes him a villain.


You’re mis-quoting me. I said he murdered and murder is an evil act thus Edward is evil for doing that. That is why he is a villain and not a victim...

by holdingoutforjacob I don't know what that quote is trying to prove to me...

But what makes you so sure that your interpretation is "how things are"?


Because in the Gulf War 1 I found out what the price is for such an act. That's how I know, "how things are?" The quote was to see if you could relate, it failed.

by bac, This is interesting conversation. So motivation plays no part in whether someone is evil or not?


IMO, motivation does play a part in how dark an evil act is. The old quote, "The Road to H3!! is paved with good intentions," comes to mind. So doing an evil act trying to be good is still an evil act, maybe a lesser darkness but its still an evil act...

by bac I believe this to be true. However, the consequences of the act may be different. So, killing someone is killing someone. However someone who acted in self defence will receive a different lawful consequence than someone who killed someone out of revenge. Also, the personal consequences may be different. The guilt associated with a murder may be different than the guilt associated with self defence. And, if you'll let me go there, the moral consequences are different.


I agree consequences will very for the act but intentions can not negate that act, it stands as either good or evil by it's self. What I’m trying to say is yes self defence is a far less evil act that out right murder, however killing is still killing and it comes with a price. To what level that prise is does vary based on the “why the act was done.”

by bac God will judge someone who is in the military and defending his country differently than he will judge a cold blooded murderer.


I truly hope so...

by holdingoutforjacob Obviously I'm not saying it was okay for Edward to kill those people, but to classify him as evil, as a villain, is simply unfair.


Your logic completely escapes me her. Maybe this is best explained that "life is not fair" and that "you are what you have done, not what you hoped to be."

by holdingoutforjacob We also need to remember that humans are his "natural food source." Is the lion evil for killing the gazelle?


I think your a bit off base here in your comparison...The gazelle did not morph into a lion because of a venom bite...it was prey all along. Vampires are an altered version of humanity, which makes them cannibals to a degree for eating humans that is in some large part why they are considered evil creatures for that act alone...

by bac Not every wrong is evil. And, I do not feel that Edward was evil.


So bac, how do you justify your view of Edward given that he has committed evil acts multiple times? That does not seem rational to me?

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I would love to discuss the variances of Good and Evil Vs. Right and Wrong Vs. Correct and Incorrect. There are some good College course in Logic and Philosophy that are far better equip to explain the nuances of these three seemingly similar concepts that in practice are vastly different. I feel I fall far short in my ability to convey the subtle differences but if we want we can explore them…
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