Edward Cullen #6

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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby The Dark Knight » Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:05 pm

una wrote:Dark Knight maybe you missed my earlier posed questions. Are vampires, because they have the ability to reason as do humans, therefore governed by the laws of man? Or are they something separate, another species or animal if you will? We do not hold animals to the same laws as humans. And if a vampire created another and told them they had to live on humans to survive, if they didn't know they could survive on animal blood, are they evil? There are many vampires who I would believe do not view humans as "close cousins" to themselves but view them more like cattle.

Speaking of choice, that was exactly my question earlier. The vampires that know (like the Volturri) that they could live off of animals but choose humans, are they evil? Especially given the nature of how they "hunt." They are not trying to fight evil, they seem to prey on the innocent. So if they are evil, are there varying degrees of evil? I personally would not put Edward in the same category as the Volturri. I think redemption is possible, but part of that is that I believe in mercy and forgiveness. That it is possible to atone for one's sins.

I do not see Edward as a villain because he repented his evil actions. Again, I define a villain as one who is on the path of evil and continues along that path, their choices are made towards evil intentions, not against it. Did he once prey on humans, yes. Does he continue to do so, no. Why, because he saw the error of his ways and rejected that path and has worked diligently to not do what he considers evil (even though he says it is the natural instinct of what he is).


All sentient being are govern by the universal laws - not necessary human laws but the big ones that all religions and spiritual beliefs have...So they are to a degree under a law of nature.

Let us be clear, all vampires by their very existence are considered evil/fallen from grace. The fantasy of being with the bad boy are the draw...Edward is given credit for his self denial but his past is still held against him too...all ones actions are...Mercy and forgiveness that lead to atonement are to those offended. How does one receive mercy or forgiveness from the dead? Forgiveness is only achieved by first repent and acknowledge of evil act, walk the path of righteousness and make full reparation for ones mis-deeds...The path of redemption is difficult at best and most fail because it's hard...nothing is free...
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby diane771 » Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:31 pm

OK DK I walk into the kitchen and one of my dogs are in the trash, they know that they are in trouble and act the same way as little kids do. Awareness and selfawareness is not only a human trait.
Edward proves this very well by his self denial that you use as his shield... I am missing your point you are making here.
Vampires are an altered version of human...to what amount who knows...But there is no way a lion is an atler form of a lion...
Well, what do we do with all the people who are born with birth defects or grow old and get dementia? Should they can be held responsable for their actions that they do not know its wrong to them? nor should they be. What about the people who live outside of our society, and live by rules that we call primative? Are we to judge the people in the asylums or in the jungles or parts of the world that we don't know about and those people we think are so backward. Well Edward did not ask to be a vampire unlike Bella. He woke up on day after being on the brink of death only to find his "life was not anything like before.
Does a vampire have a heart beat? Do vampires sleep? Do they have unnatural strength? yes. How do you kill a vampire? From a distant they look human, till you touch them, to me that is more like an alien then a human. Edward was only doing what is natural for vampires to do and that is drink human blood. You can twist it around but once his heart stopped and he woke up he was not the same person, and what he does should not be judge by human standards but by vampire standards and to me he is repentive and wanting to be a vampire with morals and not kill people so looking at Edward as a human, yes he at one time could MAYBE be called evil, but as a vampire NO WAY, we are putting the same values on Edward as he is on himself.
Let us be clear, all vampires by their very existence are considered evil/fallen from grace
I think you are getting the angels mixed up with the vampires here now DK.
The path of redemption is difficult at best and most fail because it's hard...nothing is free
Edward has put goals and his path of redemption has been a lot harder on himself, then if he was human and caught killing bad people. He would serve his time, and be let out of jail, and be set free. Edward put himself in that "cell" by what he thought of himself, and only when Bella came to him did he overcome the self hating of being a monster and his self image. Bella saw through that all, and brought him back to the real Edward not the monster Edward
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby The Dark Knight » Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:17 am

diane771 wrote:OK DK I walk into the kitchen and one of my dogs are in the trash, they know that they are in trouble and act the same way as little kids do. Awareness and selfawareness is not only a human trait.
Edward proves this very well by his self denial that you use as his shield... I am missing your point you are making here.
Vampires are an altered version of human...to what amount who knows...But there is no way a lion is an atler form of a lion...
Well, what do we do with all the people who are born with birth defects or grow old and get dementia? Should they can be held responsable for their actions that they do not know its wrong to them? nor should they be. What about the people who live outside of our society, and live by rules that we call primative? Are we to judge the people in the asylums or in the jungles or parts of the world that we don't know about and those people we think are so backward. Well Edward did not ask to be a vampire unlike Bella. He woke up on day after being on the brink of death only to find his "life was not anything like before.
Does a vampire have a heart beat? Do vampires sleep? Do they have unnatural strength? yes. How do you kill a vampire? From a distant they look human, till you touch them, to me that is more like an alien then a human. Edward was only doing what is natural for vampires to do and that is drink human blood. You can twist it around but once his heart stopped and he woke up he was not the same person, and what he does should not be judge by human standards but by vampire standards and to me he is repentive and wanting to be a vampire with morals and not kill people so looking at Edward as a human, yes he at one time could MAYBE be called evil, but as a vampire NO WAY, we are putting the same values on Edward as he is on himself.
Let us be clear, all vampires by their very existence are considered evil/fallen from grace
I think you are getting the angels mixed up with the vampires here now DK.
The path of redemption is difficult at best and most fail because it's hard...nothing is free
Edward has put goals and his path of redemption has been a lot harder on himself, then if he was human and caught killing bad people. He would serve his time, and be let out of jail, and be set free. Edward put himself in that "cell" by what he thought of himself, and only when Bella came to him did he overcome the self hating of being a monster and his self image. Bella saw through that all, and brought him back to the real Edward not the monster Edward


Diane you are seriously trivializing what Edwards has to go through on his path of redemption. As we spoke off line on this I will go no further...

Actually succubuses and the like are mentioned as part of the fallen...Adams first wife Lilith became one...check out her story some time...So yes, all Vamps are classified as part of the fallen in western view. The Eastern view of Vamipres is even worse. Just so we are clear how societies throughout the world view them...
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby Dovrebanen » Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:19 am

diane771 wrote:Does a vampire have a heart beat? Do vampires sleep? Do they have unnatural strength? yes. How do you kill a vampire? From a distant they look human, till you touch them, to me that is more like an alien then a human. Edward was only doing what is natural for vampires to do and that is drink human blood. You can twist it around but once his heart stopped and he woke up he was not the same person, and what he does should not be judge by human standards but by vampire standards and to me he is repentive and wanting to be a vampire with morals and not kill people so looking at Edward as a human, yes he at one time could MAYBE be called evil, but as a vampire NO WAY, we are putting the same values on Edward as he is on himself.

Diane - I think you are at the essence of it here.
Edward is for me somewhere between animal and human. Of course he is not an animal because he has human intelligence and emotions, and even more than humans. He can make decisions based on rational thoughts, and perform actions based on that. But he also has this animal inside him, who can take over for his rational thoughts. He has this drive/urge to drink human blood. It is in his body, and he can't be blamed for that. So for a time he got tired of resisting, or pretending to be something that he wasn't. And he gave into the predator inside him. It is not a choice to be evil. It was natural desire in him.

You are so right about what happened when his heart stopped. He was forever changed. The 17 year old human boy was gone, and in his place was a bloodthirsty vampire. And therefor he cannot and should not be judged by human standards. He has a predator inside him, and he needs blood to survive. He didn't kill to be evil. He only killed the ones that were in fact evil. Who planned to kill and molest women. So while he gave into his desires, there were also a part of him that held on to some of his humanity. And he would never kill an innocent. And even if he did, we still can't judge him like we would judge the human Edward for doing the same. He was not the same person anymore. He had desires, that it took years to control. And I personally don't blame him for straying from the veggie path.

I give him full credit for going back to Carlisle. That proves to me how essentially good Edward is. He had tasted human blood and he knew it kept him more satisfied than animal blood. It would have been easy to continue down that path like every other vampire. But he didn't. He was disgusted with himself, and he hated himself for what he did, even if he was only following his natural instincts. So he can hate himself for what he did, like I am sure everyone who has taken a life does, but that does not mean that we should judge him to be evil.

DK - You seem like you always want to separate motives from actions. We've been over this several times. But I have to say it again. IMO, you cannot do that. Edward killed because he was a predator by nature, who lives on blood. But at the same time his humanity and rational mind made him go for the criminals. It shows that even when he was following his natural instincts, he had a conscience. And he tried to make the best out of what he were. Does that make killing right? No, two wrongs don't make a right. But it makes it understandable, and even to an extent admireable that he was even thinking along those lines of saving the innocents. Edward didn't kill to be evil, he killed because his body needed him to.
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby The Dark Knight » Tue Sep 01, 2009 6:50 am

So which is he, The monster that kills to survive that has fallen from Gods Graces a cast out of evil doers or is he sentient beign responsible for his action, that had been given alternative choices and gave into his base self? You can't have it both ways he's either one or the other. Neither are good. Being a bleeding heart and wanting believe the best in someone else is polyanna at best and dangerous and destructive at it's worse. To use the snake anology, it's a matter of time before the mamba bites you no matter how much you want it not to.

Here's a parable: The Scorpion and the Frog
One day, a scorpion looked around at the mountain where he lived and decided that he wanted a change. So he set out on a journey through the forests and hills. He climbed over rocks and under vines and kept going until he reached a river.
The river was wide and swift, and the scorpion stopped to reconsider the situation. He couldn't see any way across. So he ran upriver and then checked downriver, all the while thinking that he might have to turn back.

Suddenly, he saw a frog sitting in the rushes by the bank of the stream on the other side of the river. He decided to ask the frog for help getting across the stream.

"Hellooo Mr. Frog!" called the scorpion across the water, "Would you be so kind as to give me a ride on your back across the river?"

"Well now, Mr. Scorpion! How do I know that if I try to help you, you wont try to kill me?" asked the frog hesitantly.

"Because," the scorpion replied, "If I try to kill you, then I would die too, for you see I cannot swim!"

Now this seemed to make sense to the frog. But he asked. "What about when I get close to the bank? You could still try to kill me and get back to the shore!"

"This is true," agreed the scorpion, "But then I wouldn't be able to get to the other side of the river!"

"Alright then...how do I know you wont just wait till we get to the other side and THEN kill me?" said the frog.

"Ahh...," crooned the scorpion, "Because you see, once you've taken me to the other side of this river, I will be so grateful for your help, that it would hardly be fair to reward you with death, now would it?!"

So the frog agreed to take the scorpion across the river. He swam over to the bank and settled himself near the mud to pick up his passenger. The scorpion crawled onto the frog's back, his sharp claws prickling into the frog's soft hide, and the frog slid into the river. The muddy water swirled around them, but the frog stayed near the surface so the scorpion would not drown. He kicked strongly through the first half of the stream, his flippers paddling wildly against the current.

Halfway across the river, the frog suddenly felt a sharp sting in his back and, out of the corner of his eye, saw the scorpion remove his stinger from the frog's back. A deadening numbness began to creep into his limbs.

"You fool!" croaked the frog, "Now we shall both die! Why on earth did you do that?"

The scorpion shrugged, and did a little jig on the drownings frog's back.

"I could not help myself. It is my nature."

Then they both sank into the muddy waters of the swiftly flowing river.

Self destruction - "Its my Nature", said the Scorpion...
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby una » Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:31 pm

I do enjoy that parable, thanks Dark Knight.

The Dark Knight wrote:Forgiveness is only achieved by first repent and acknowledge of evil act, walk the path of righteousness and make full reparation for ones mis-deeds...The path of redemption is difficult at best and most fail because it's hard...nothing is free...


I do love the discussion of the element of redemption in literature. Edward did repent after turning his back on Carlisle and spending those two years hunting (whom he deemed evil) humans. He saw what he was doing was still wrong, it ate at his conscious (I do not use soul - because Edward doesn't believe he has one). So he returns to Carlisle and recommits himself to that life. Then instead of just playing music and 'goofing off', he also gets himself educated and not just educated in what interests him. He assists Carlisle in keeping up to date on medical techniques and information so Carlisle can continue to help people. Edward (if I recall correctly) hopes to one day have Carlisle's control so that he too can be a doctor and help people, especially given the advantage they would have due to their senses. I see repentance here, a man trying to walk the path of righteousness by turning away from the "evil" acts he was doing and trying to make reparations by "paying forward" since you are right, he cannot bring back the dead. Edward never says his path is easy, like they talk about being veggie vamps is a difficult path, it's especially seen in Jasper. It goes against their instinctual nature. But they work hard and support one another to try and stay on that path of righteousness.

Plus, I'm sure if Edward had killed a child molester or spouse abuser - did he not save the next victim or the on-going victims? I'm sure he had their gratitude if not forgiveness (especially if it was their own family member that was not only the perpetrator but the one killed by Edward). Forgiveness can be offered by the surviving spouse or family in the case of one who has been killed. And if we are speaking spiritually, what if the offender killed by Edward wanted to stop and couldn't? Wouldn't he be grateful that his evil had been stopped? Something he couldn't do on his own? Please not, I am not justifying his actions, two evils a right does not make. However, who was the greater evil? And who repented?
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby diane771 » Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:59 pm

Well I see repent and redemption being used here in the wrong way.
Redemption is being redeemed or redeeming.
Redeem is deliver from sin and damnation; make up or compensate for; save (oneself) from blame.
Repent -feel deep sorrow for one's actions, wish one had not done; resolve not to continue.
Now in Edwards case we all see him repenting for the things that he did. But not given credit for redeeming himself. because he does not see it too.
I see the redemption is the fact Edward changed his life around and study, did not feed off of humans anymore and became a productive being. Since Edward does not think the vampires have no souls and he did from the start his compensation is to not be what a vampire is normally thought of, A vampire that has the power and the desire to consume humans. So I do think he redeemed himself and only when Bella showed him that he needed to look deeper into himself that he saw how he had saved himself by the life he was now living.
I don't know if I am making sense here but I am trying to explain how Edward is repentive and also redeemed.
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby The Dark Knight » Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:00 pm

una wrote:I do enjoy that parable, thanks Dark Knight.

Plus, I'm sure if Edward had killed a child molester or spouse abuser - did he not save the next victim or the on-going victims? I'm sure he had their gratitude if not forgiveness (especially if it was their own family member that was not only the perpetrator but the one killed by Edward). Forgiveness can be offered by the surviving spouse or family in the case of one who has been killed. And if we are speaking spiritually, what if the offender killed by Edward wanted to stop and couldn't? Wouldn't he be grateful that his evil had been stopped? Something he couldn't do on his own? Please not, I am not justifying his actions, two evils a right does not make. However, who was the greater evil? And who repented?



Thanks Una, That is one of the best parables I have even read...It sure gives a warning for all, expect to only get what you have seen from someone else. It puts the ownership of the situation back on the person having to make the decision, trust what you know to be true and disregard the illusion or lie...

I do have to beg to differ on the forgiveness given by anyone other than the person offended can fully account for the action. It can in part give relief to a degree but it does not allow for reperation. Sorry, but here I have to diverge from you wll meant thoughts...
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby Dovrebanen » Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:13 pm

The Dark Knight wrote:So which is he, The monster that kills to survive that has fallen from Gods Graces a cast out of evil doers or is he sentient beign responsible for his action, that had been given alternative choices and gave into his base self? You can't have it both ways he's either one or the other. Neither are good. Being a bleeding heart and wanting believe the best in someone else is polyanna at best and dangerous and destructive at it's worse. To use the snake anology, it's a matter of time before the mamba bites you no matter how much you want it not to.

I don't see how wanting to believe the best in someone like Edward is Pollyanna or dangerous. All I am saying is that the world is not as black and white as your argument seems to want it to be. For me Edward was never evil, because he didn't kill with evil intentions. He killed because he is a predator by nature, and when he did so, he took out the ones that were a threat to innocent lives. Like Una says, Edward probably saved several lives by taking out the kidnappers and molesters before they could any more harm. He might have saved women from being raped, by knowing the intentions of the criminal and killing him before he got a chance to hurt more women than he already had.
And I am not saying that Edward is right in taking the law into his own hands. But considering he is a vampire, who has a natural instinct to kill, it makes it better that he only killed the bad ones.

I liked your scorpion story. But I don't see it as totally relatable to Edward. The frog was an innocent "person" who also helped the scorpion. So in killing him, the scorpion performed an evil act (assuming that the scorpion in your story had the ability to make conscious decisions, since he could talk :D ). Edward however never killed innocent people. He saved them from other dangers.

Edward was sorry for what he did. And he hated himself for straying from Carlisle and from his humanity. But I also see a man who tried for the rest of his existence to do good things. He fought against what he was and denied himself the gratification of human blood, even after he had tasted it. For me, all of these factors redeem what he did. That combined with the fact that he is a vampire, are the reasons why I refuse to see Edward as evil. I also think that Edward was so scared to kill again. I think he hated that he had to kill Victoria, but he did it to save Bella. He didn't want to take any more lives than he already had. And his biggest test was Bella herself. I feel that he more than redeemed himself for what he did. In the eyes of everyone but himself. Carlisle forgave him, as did everyone else. But he still suffered a lot because of his past, and I think he wanted to be the best that he could every minute of his existence.
I like how Bella in the books describes Edward as an angel. She sees the good at the very core of him, that he can't see himself. And she understands his vampire nature, and it doesn't even occur to her to push away from him or think that he is evil because of his past.
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby una » Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:20 pm

The Dark Knight wrote:I do have to beg to differ on the forgiveness given by anyone other than the person offended can fully account for the action. It can in part give relief to a degree but it does not allow for reperation. Sorry, but here I have to diverge from you wll meant thoughts...


I certainly have no problem agreeing to disagree with you! :D

I see your point Diane771 in the difference between redemption and repentance. However, I feel that Edward did repent and by the end of BD, I wonder if he felt the redeemed? I believe he was redeemed when he met Bella. What if Bella was the reward for returning to the path of the righteous? True, a test in a way to see if he was truly worthy, which he past and gained his soul mate. I wonder, now that his mate is a vampire and how Bella is as a vampire, if his attitude about being a monster has changed. Does Edward think he has been redeemed by the end?
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