Edward and Bella 2

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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby Alphie » Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:33 am

I have a couple of comments. First, I don't think the Twilight Saga as anything to do with the Wizard of Oz in any way, shape of form. It's a good question to think of the heart or the courage aspect of it, but when you start putting Bella in Dorothy's shoes and Edward as the Tin Man... all sorts of odd fan fic possibilities run through my head. And none of them are any good! LOL! Twilight is a love story while the only love being talked about in Oz is the love of home. The Wizard of Oz, while basically a children's story, is also something of a political satire of the 1900's where Dorothy is middle America, the Scarecow being the farmers, The Tin Man being industry, the lion being politicians, and OZ and it's wizard being FDR and his new deal. Seriously, I learned about this is high school. I bet you can Google it. So I didn't get what all the fuss was over likening Twilight to Oz. (And hey she is the WICKED Witch, not the Wicket Witch. She doesn't play croquet, does she?)

Second of all, HofJ stated that she didn't think neither Edward or Bella was searching for anything. I have to disagree. what I think is the more accurate statement is that they weren't ACTIVELY searching for anything. But I can't believe that Edward didn't hope that someday he would find someone that would move him the way Esme did for Carlisle. he constantly refers to the way Carlisle was before and after Esme was in his life. I think he envied that relationship. He even jokes about how much free time he had being on his own in a house full of happily partnered couples. So while he might not have been actively looking for her, I think he did eventually hope to find her and wasn't opposed to the idea. He just didn't expect her to be a frail, young human that smelled so good. Along the same lines, I think Bella hoped for that, too, someday. Is there really any human being alive that never ever wants or hopes to fall in love?

Lastly, about respect - you are very right in that demanding respect is impossible to do. It needs to be earned. Una has earned my respect for her work here at the Lexicon and in what I know of her as a person. That's why she was made a moderator. And I feel that given the way she has handled and put out the various small fires on the boards has given her the opportunity to earn the respect of the users here. So please, follow her nudging and keep the tone a bit lighter around here. You all have some of the best discussions going on, but the attitude can get a bit out of control. Honestly, some of your points have really been thought provoking, and considering that I've been talking Twilight since 2006, that's saying something! (But I still don't get the wizard of oz thing! LOL!)
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby Angelvamp » Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:46 am

I agree with most of the posts here regarding manners and respect. Sad but true, many of the younger generation have no idea what these two words mean. Would that be our fault then, Dark Knight and diane771? Because we didn't do a good job of teaching them? So many younger people have this strange sense of entitlement, was it because they were indulged and spoiled by us? Or does this actually reflect a shift or evolution in society?

I agree with diane771 that respect cannot be demanded. However, I see nothing wrong with demanding that someone (especially your significant other) TREAT you with respect. It's up to you to show people how you want them to treat you. If you accept being treated badly, then you will be. You need to have respect for yourself first or there's no reason for anyone else to have respect for you.

And pardon me for saying, but I don't believe Edward showed off his turn-of-the-century chivalry very well when he first met Bella. He glared at her muderously and confessed to wanting to kill her. Then he completely ignored her for a month or so, admittedly after saving her from the van. But I'm not sure that could be classified under "good manners". It was within his power to save her and he did. I think almost anyone would do the same. After he began talking to her again, maybe his manners revealed themselves, but at that point, I'm not sure that Bella registered them. He wasn't exactly behaving like a normal person, what with saving her life then treating her like a pariah then stalking her in Port Angeles. I'm surprised Bella was able to see through all those strange mixed messages at all! Maybe the fact that he's hot smoothed things over... :)
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby Alphie » Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:33 am

Ohhhhh... you make a good point Angelvamp about Edward's LACK of manners at the beginning of Twilight with the glaring and the cold shoulder. But take it from the view that he at least had the decency to ignore his vampiric (is that a word?) instincts and NOT kill her. Couldn't his ability to suppress his urge to kill her and instead just glare at her be considered some what a form of chivalry?
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby Asheleyo » Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:52 am

Speaking from the viewpoint of the "younger" generation, the way I see it, all the revolutions and movements that were so good and needed by society (women's rights, civil rights, etc) kind of got distorted by the time they trickled down to us. What I mean by that, is that people started being so self-righteous. They thought they had a right to do anything because someone somewhere must have marched for their right to do it. They honestly want to be able to speak whatever comes to their minds and then turn around and claim that they have the right to be treated better when someone tries to say something back to them. I don't want to use specific examples, I'm sure everyone's encountered at least one person like this. The unfortunate thing is that the very necessary developments in society gave some individuals the idea that they are free to do as they like and free from criticism for doing so. And that plays in to someone's everyday level of respect for others. When you automatically view yourself as beyond criticism, you have a superiority complex and you're not going to respect anyone who just walks up to you and starts talking, no matter what they're saying.

Maybe you could say that some parents passed on a smugness from their victories. I don't think they really meant it to do harm, but they didn't always do a good job of explaining.

Anyway, I think AngelVamp has a good point. Whether or not it was obvious to Bella at the time, Edward was sending some seriously mixed up signals. She was able to catch snippets of his manners in between, though. Nothing from the first day of meeting him, but when he came back and tried to talk to her, he was being polite in speech. She made note of how the way he talked seemed somewhat old-fashioned. Other than the fact that he may have been a little nosy or pushy with the personal questions, I think he was a gentleman (until that last bit of her scent hit him and he had to dash out of the classroom).
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby una » Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:08 pm

Alphie wrote:Ohhhhh... you make a good point Angelvamp about Edward's LACK of manners at the beginning of Twilight with the glaring and the cold shoulder. But take it from the view that he at least had the decency to ignore his vampiric (is that a word?) instincts and NOT kill her. Couldn't his ability to suppress his urge to kill her and instead just glare at her be considered some what a form of chivalry?


Alphie so glad to see you joining the discussion here! I would think it was very polite and well bred that Edward chose to send her murderous looks and treat her like she had leprosy instead of killing her. :lol: It would have been poor form indeed to kill her, along with all the other "children" in the classroom.

But in all seriousness, it is difficult to be polite and (outwardly...not necessarily feeling) respectful towards someone that unleashes your inner beast (we've all been in this situation, though I doubt we would have killed someone over it). When Edward's inner "monster" is triggered by Bella's scent, his ability to fight, even though he came off as rude and insensitive, was heroic. But again, it's knowing all the facts...Bella at the moment, didn't. It's bad enough to close a door in a gal's face, but to kill her would be a far worse mistake. And even though Edward does give Bella the cold shoulder, after their discussion in the hospital, she can tell he is trying to push her away, not because he is rude, but because he is trying to protect her even though Bella believes (rightly so) that he is trying to hide something. Remember, I've said this before, the road to the infernal sauna is paved with good intentions. The signals become even more confusing as Bella can tell as much as he tries to avoid her, he pays attention to her. As much as Edward is an enigma to Bella, she is an enigma to him. That could be the pull of the attraction as well, they are each a puzzle the other wants to figure out.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby diane771 » Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:37 pm

i do think by the book Edward did everything to keep Bella away from him. Does that mean he does not have good manners? Well not really because at that point they were not formally introduced yet and had not even spoken to each other. Yes I do agree Alphie that it was a form of chivary that he was protecting Bella from himself even when he was coming off as being Rude.
Angelvamp long time, but yes it does go back to the parents and what they are taught at home. Respect and manners, my son and his family will have that pass down to them and I am glad. Its so hard to see what little role the parents play in the upbringing when it comes to just manners and respect. This though I do not see at all
He wasn't exactly behaving like a normal person, what with saving her life then treating her like a pariah then stalking her in Port Angeles. I'm surprised Bella was able to see through all those strange mixed messages at all! Maybe the fact that he's hot smoothed things over...
Why do you see Edward as a pariah and not as someone who is totally interested with someone he never came across with through out all his life and wanted to check her out privately and in turned ended up saving her from a very bad situation. Edward never meant any harm to Bella there, so stalking is a word that is not what I would use.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby Asheleyo » Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:51 pm

She didn't say that Edward was the pariah, she said that he was treating Bella like a pariah. He was casting her out of his attentions. He was doing to try to keep her away from him for the safety of his family and himself and Bella, but still, he was treating her like an outcast.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby diane771 » Tue Sep 15, 2009 5:02 pm

Asheleyo, I haven't a clue to what you are trying to say. The first place is, that when Edward first met Bella in class when he was first over come with her scent, and desire to kill her, he just wanted to get away from her, because he didn't want to kill her. He had made his mind up that he didn't want to be a monster, and yet you say something like this when Edward is under so much pressure to control himself, you are only worried about the impression he is making. Bella knows there is something wrong but she is less hard on him than you and some others.
He was casting her out of his attentions. He was doing to try to keep her away from him for the safety of his family and himself and Bella, but still, he was treating her like an outcast.
Would you rather have him break everything that he had stride to live up to, a decent life, a life of a vampire that does not live off of human blood, so he wouldn't treat Bella as an outcast? I just don't see where you are going with this instead of giving him credit for sitting there and holding it together, you are worried about Bella's feelings, to which later on she immediately overlooked when he introduce himself to her and started talking to her. So again, my point is the outsiders are looking at things and seeing problems in Edward's and Bella's relationship where there is none. Did Bella ever once say" Edward you were such a jerk to me that first day at school " no because Bella is more mature and knows that the world doesn't revolve around her and Edward might have had other things on his mind that had nothing to do with her. I do believe that Edward did the right thing in sitting there and enduring the scent and trying to come to terms with this problem, instead of dealing with it in another manner. He may not have been on a friendly, welcoming nature that day but nobody is so I give Edward a pass because he did not run from it.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby Asheleyo » Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:01 pm

You assumed much too much from what I said. First of all, I was clarifying what Angelvamp had said.
diane771 wrote:Why do you see Edward as a pariah and not as someone who is totally interested with someone he never came across with through out all his life and wanted to check her out privately and in turned ended up saving her from a very bad situation.

You misunderstood her and thought she said that Edward was being a pariah when she had really said that Edward was treating Bella like a pariah.

Secondly, I was speaking of the time that he chose to ignore her after he rescued her from the van. I wouldn't call resisting the urge to kill her the first day treating her like a pariah. But, from Bella's perspective, those months that Edward completely ignored her is treating her as a pariah (I feel like I've said that way too many times for one post).

Next time you don't understand, please stop at the fact that you don't understand. Please don't continue putting words in my mouth (or typing them on my keyboard...lame attempt at a joke) or making false assumptions. I completely agree that Edward did the right thing. I'd be insane to say that the entire saga, which I adore reading, should never have continued past the first couple chapters because it would have been better for Edward to give in. I'm not stupid.
Precisely because death awaits us in the end, we must live fully.

Stars did fly toward each other, irresistibly, as if they were falling in love. And millions of years later, lovers on Earth drew together and fell in love, watching the stars fall.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby diane771 » Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:47 pm

I was clear on what Angelvamp said, and need no helping out, thanks anyway though.
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