Jacob Black #2

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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:37 am

Oh my gosh, could you imagine how difficult that would be to follow though?? It would jump around like CARAZY!!!

I try to live by the rule that it pertains most to the character you're thinking most about. So if you're thinking most about Bella and her reactions to the actions of another character, but you have to include the actions and motivations of that character to make your point, it belongs in Bella. But if your thoughts when you're making your post center on a different character, it belongs in their thread. Make sense? I know it can be hard to get used to.... just trying to help!

I'm interested though - what did you think of what I had to say about Jacob?

I told you this in the Bella thread, but I'm hoping you ignore that post in the interest of moving back to the topic of Bella there - my fault for responding no worries! Just hoping you have better sense than me! - but I think you should read Being Jacob Black on SM's website. It really allows for deeper insight into his head. And there's some interesting tidbits in her personal correspondence if you're interested....

I'm being an obnoxious fangirl, I apologize!
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby swedishskinjer » Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:53 am

holdingoutforjacob wrote:Oh my gosh, could you imagine how difficult that would be to follow though?? It would jump around like CARAZY!!!

I try to live by the rule that it pertains most to the character you're thinking most about. So if you're thinking most about Bella and her reactions to the actions of another character, but you have to include the actions and motivations of that character to make your point, it belongs in Bella. But if your thoughts when you're making your post center on a different character, it belongs in their thread. Make sense? I know it can be hard to get used to.... just trying to help!

I'm interested though - what did you think of what I had to say about Jacob?

I told you this in the Bella thread, but I'm hoping you ignore that post in the interest of moving back to the topic of Bella there - my fault for responding no worries! Just hoping you have better sense than me! - but I think you should read Being Jacob Black on SM's website. It really allows for deeper insight into his head. And there's some interesting tidbits in her personal correspondence if you're interested....

I'm being an obnoxious fangirl, I apologize!


No. That's perfectly understandable.

Despite what some of my responses may imply, I don't despise Jacob Black as a main character in any way. Some of his actions were a bit too extreme, but he's still a worthy friend for Bella who has shaped the series in his own way. However, my preference for a romantic relationship has always been the love that is at the heart of the saga: Edward and Bella. If you think about it, Jacob does have an extension of Bella with Renesmee, who was able to dismiss all of his prejudices against vampires within moments.
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby swedishskinjer » Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:01 am

Consider that werewolves are NOT the sworn mortal enemies of vampires. Rather, vampires are the sworn mortal enemies of werewolves - they aren't mutually inclusive.

Also, consider that THIS vampire in particular is the one that left Bella for dead in the woods, turned her into a zombie for weeks on end, lied to her, etc. How would it look to you, in Jacob's shoes? Wouldn't what he did to Bella (with wonderful selfless intentions, before I get myself into trouble!) make you believe in the nasty things you've heard about vampires??

Also, I think you're refusing to see Jacob's intentions as anything other than controlling her for the sake of controlling her, which is simply not what they were. I can say that because we've been told that by the creator of these characters - who would know better than her?


At that particular point in time, Jacob's actions were justified due to the fact that his knowledge of the situation itself was limited. He only knew that Bella was deeply hurt after being abandoned in a forest (I don't think that Edward could have anticipated her remaining in the forest, since they weren't *too* far from Charlie's house, though). He didn't exactly know that Edward left Forks in order to protect Bella from the dangers of his world. He could only see the negatives: Edward carelessly left Bella behind.

However, after Edward returned, Jacob's knowledge of the situation broadened. To an extent, he knew that Edward had departed from Forks with intentions that were entirely selfless. Edward even humbled himself in the forest by thanking Jacob with all of his heart. He started to drive Bella to the reservation himself. He offered Seth, a member of the wolf pack, support on the battlefield. He told Jacob about his actions during the tent scene.

Still, Jacob did not shift his original thoughts until Breaking Dawn. That is what I mean about him being blinded by prejudice against Edward Cullen, despite the fact that he had a greater amount of knowledge about the situation in New Moon. He could only see Edward as an impure enemy, as opposed to Bella's true love.

EDIT: *sigh* Another double post. Heat of a discussion kind of thing, I suppose.
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:48 am

Well, you managed to figure out how to move a discussion from one forum to another, which I still haven't figured out how to do, so I think your double post should certainly be excused!!

I understand how you feel about Jacob - although I was certainly thrown off by your first post pertaining to him!

I absolutely agree that it took Jacob longer to get over his anger towards Edward. There's simply no denying it. I will argue, though, that his was more deeply rooted and more justified.

Like I said, wolves are not the sworn enemies of vampires as it is the other way around. Also, Jacob has more to hate about Edward on a more personal level. Edward has everything Jacob wants - and as Jacob sees it, doesn't treat it very well. Jacob wasn't privy to any information about Edward's reasons for leaving Bella until the tent scene, if ever. Consider also, what Edward's actions at the beginning of Eclipse meant to Jacob. In not allowing Bella to see him, Edward shows him incredible disrespect. He assumes that he knows more about Jacob than Bella, without ever having had a conversation with him except when he was at his most hurt and vulnerable. I'm not denying the sincerity of Edward's gratitude when he thanked Jacob in the forest, but wouldn't you if you were Jacob and Edward followed that "thank you" with the clear message that "Thanks for taking care of her while I was gone, but now I'm back, and I don't respect you enough to even bother to find out for myself if you're capable of handling this. Not only that, but I think that I'm in a position to judge you, and I've judged you unsafe without even knowing you."

Now, obviously we know what was going on in Edward's head, but Jacob doesn't. He doesn't come close until BD, and doesn't have an opportunity to come close until the tent scene in Eclipse. That was the beginning. Then, obviously, there was battle, there was Jacob's leave of absence, then there was the wedding, where he learns that Edward is going to allow Bella to put herself in incredible danger after having promised to take care of her.

I think that his hatred towards Edward would have gone away in BD sooner if Bella hadn't been in so much pain. Jacob blamed him, even though he knew it wasn't truly Edward's fault, so he tries to work beyond that. We see him in his attitude try very hard to be polite to Edward in BD, and we start to see a brotherhood between them in caring for Bella. So as soon as he doesn't have to hate what Edward has done to Bella anymore, he doesn't have to hate Edward anymore.

Also, I think it's more a personal thing between them than a "race" thing. That's why Seth's relationship with them has no real relevance, that's why he can get along with Carlisle very well, that's why he tries so hard to be respectful of Esme. It takes much less to get over that age-old enmity, but a lot more to get over wrongs done to him by Edward. Not that Edward intended to do him wrongs.

I really hope all that made sense.
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby Amanda Beth » Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:59 am

The line in Breaking Dawn that will probably always make me cry and solidifies Edward and Jake's relationship for the rest of their lives/eternity is when they all think they're going to die and Edward says to Jake "Goodbye, Jacob, my brother… my son."
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:01 am

Really? I hate that line with a violent passion. It's the my son part. It weirds me out. Feels inappropriate. I dunno why.
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby Jazz Girl » Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:26 am

I would disagree that werewolves are not the sworn enemies of the vampires. The only reason the werewolves exist is to protect the tribe and kill the vampires. It is the existence of the vampires that triggers the gene to cause the transformation. Jacob even says at one point that if Bella needs to blame someone, she should blame the "filthy bloodsuckers". And, remember Alice's speech in New Moon, after her return, when she says to Jacob, "they are the reason your hair stands on end when you smell me" or something to that extent. There is a natural emnity between the groups. It is not one-sided by any stretch of the imagination.

As for Edward's statement in the meadow, he knew that Jake was bonded to his daughter, that he would, in fact, one day be his son in law. He was acknowledging that bond and that relationship, accepting it and honoring it.
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:32 am

Right. But vampires, traditionally, are the aggressors while werewolves are the defenders. Everything you just said reaffirms what I said - that vampires cause a big reaction in wolves, that vampires are the sworn enemies of werewolves. However, the wolves spark a mild distaste in vampires, a bad smell. I don't think it's such a "stretch of the imagination" to interpret that to mean that the whole "sworn enemies" thing is a bigger thing for the wolves than the vampires.

I am very aware of what Edward was acknowledging. I was commenting on the writing style. To me, it seems forced.
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby swedishskinjer » Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:37 am

holdingoutforjacob wrote:Well, you managed to figure out how to move a discussion from one forum to another, which I still haven't figured out how to do, so I think your double post should certainly be excused!!

I understand how you feel about Jacob - although I was certainly thrown off by your first post pertaining to him!

I absolutely agree that it took Jacob longer to get over his anger towards Edward. There's simply no denying it. I will argue, though, that his was more deeply rooted and more justified.

Like I said, wolves are not the sworn enemies of vampires as it is the other way around. Also, Jacob has more to hate about Edward on a more personal level. Edward has everything Jacob wants - and as Jacob sees it, doesn't treat it very well. Jacob wasn't privy to any information about Edward's reasons for leaving Bella until the tent scene, if ever. Consider also, what Edward's actions at the beginning of Eclipse meant to Jacob. In not allowing Bella to see him, Edward shows him incredible disrespect. He assumes that he knows more about Jacob than Bella, without ever having had a conversation with him except when he was at his most hurt and vulnerable. I'm not denying the sincerity of Edward's gratitude when he thanked Jacob in the forest, but wouldn't you if you were Jacob and Edward followed that "thank you" with the clear message that "Thanks for taking care of her while I was gone, but now I'm back, and I don't respect you enough to even bother to find out for myself if you're capable of handling this. Not only that, but I think that I'm in a position to judge you, and I've judged you unsafe without even knowing you."

Now, obviously we know what was going on in Edward's head, but Jacob doesn't. He doesn't come close until BD, and doesn't have an opportunity to come close until the tent scene in Eclipse. That was the beginning. Then, obviously, there was battle, there was Jacob's leave of absence, then there was the wedding, where he learns that Edward is going to allow Bella to put herself in incredible danger after having promised to take care of her.

I think that his hatred towards Edward would have gone away in BD sooner if Bella hadn't been in so much pain. Jacob blamed him, even though he knew it wasn't truly Edward's fault, so he tries to work beyond that. We see him in his attitude try very hard to be polite to Edward in BD, and we start to see a brotherhood between them in caring for Bella. So as soon as he doesn't have to hate what Edward has done to Bella anymore, he doesn't have to hate Edward anymore.

Also, I think it's more a personal thing between them than a "race" thing. That's why Seth's relationship with them has no real relevance, that's why he can get along with Carlisle very well, that's why he tries so hard to be respectful of Esme. It takes much less to get over that age-old enmity, but a lot more to get over wrongs done to him by Edward. Not that Edward intended to do him wrongs.

I really hope all that made sense.


It feels so refreshing to argue about these characters without referencing their physical beauty ("Jacob is hotter!" "No. Edward is clearly hotter than Jacob!"). In my opinion, arguing so simplistically disrespects their richness and the real substance of the enmity between them. So, despite the fact that I may vehemently disagree with some of your conclusions, I do relish mature arguments that acknowledge the complexity in both Edward and Jacob, which is far more than their physical attributes. Thank you for providing that.

Like I said, wolves are not the sworn enemies of vampires as it is the other way around.


Could you clarify this, if at all possible? In New Moon, doesn't Jacob specifically say that the so-called "wolf gene" only activates when vampires are near their territory? Technically speaking, the shapeshifters only have one purpose in their wolf form since the first transformation: to purge any threat that vampires ("bloodsuckers") pose against their land. Therefore, the shapeshifters are the sworn enemies of vampires, because they only exist in that form due to vampires themselves. I would consider creatures that serve as the catalyst for my first transformation a "sworn enemy", because they would be directly responsible for the fever setting in.

Again, I think that a more accurate statement would be that the Cullens and the local tribe are sworn enemies due to their specific history. Broadly, vampires have a variety of enemies, from rival covens to the actual Children of the Moon.

As far as Edward's judgment against Jacob is concerned, I do believe that Eclipse represents a significant softening in Edward's previously hostile view of the wolves for a few reasons: one, Edward starts to drive Bella to the reservation himself after realizing that there is no chance of his beloved becoming the next Emily; two, Edward embraces a partnership with the tribe in order to confront a common enemy, which leads to his fascination with how the pack functions as a whole; and three, Edward secretly invites Jacob to the wedding near the end of the novel, which was a sincere extension of friendship. Before all of this, wasn't it established that Alice couldn't see Bella's future after she entered the reservation? Edward, I think, misinterpreted this into a warning that Bella would be endangered after angering Jacob. He didn't despise Jacob as a personal thing, did he? He despised the idea of losing Bella itself, which lead to some irrational decisions.

I do disagree about Seth's reaction to the Cullens not carrying much relevance, though. Since vampires are responsible for the necessity of even needing a tribe of wolves, the tribe itself is repulsed by the very scent of their enemies. Seth overcomes this with his great capacity for love, which demonstrates that Jacob could still be close to Bella, even after the completion of her transformation. So, Seth's actions show that a permanent alliance is possible, as opposed to a temporary truce that only exists when a common enemy is near. Did this sort of interaction between a member of the pack and a vampire even have any precedent?
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:16 am

I'm going to be really annoying and say that, IMO, Taylor Lautner is WAY more attractive than Robert Pattinson. I got my issue of Rolling Stone with him on the cover today and couldn't breathe. No lie. But that's clearly NOT why I like the character of Jacob better!!!

I do like what Jacob represents better than Edward though. Wolves are designed for protection, to keep bad things away. I like that, I need that. I also like the idea of Jacob as the sun, the warmth, a simple, understated love. It's really really just a personal preference thing for me, in terms of Jacob vs. Edward.

Yeah, I can definitely clarify that, I knew I'd need to. What I mean is that the enmity between them is not felt as strongly by vampires as it is by wolves. The Cullens look down upon the wolves, for sure. But that's all, really. Whereas the wolves, or the Quileutes, have a fierce prejudice against the "Cold Ones" who did them so much harm. So, the Pack has made the Cullens their sworn enemies, but the Cullens don't have that same ingrained distrust and hatred. Does that make sense? I'm sorry I'm so bad at explaining myself!

You are absolutely right in that the second half of Eclipse sees a huge "bettering" of Edward's attitude towards the Pack. It's just that Jacob can't see this, because Edward and Jacob aren't together in any sort of companionable way again. The tent scene is a start, but obviously that gets fouled up too! That's not to say this change in Edward isn't important - it allows for the co-existance in battle and the subsequent bond in New Moon. The sending of the invitation is one of my favorite things that Edward does, btw.

Edward did not despise Jacob as a personal thing, you're right. But Jacob did despise Edward as a personal thing. Everything I said in my previous post was from Jacob's POV, with his knowledge, how he would perceive Edward's actions. Make more sense now? The Edward driving thing could be interpreted as Edward still doesn't trust him enough to let Bella drive there on her own. Based off the previous experiences, if I were Jacob, I'd go with that. Again, he doesn't know what went down between Bella and Edward after she runs away to see him you know? The pairing with the tribe was to fight off a common enemy out of necessity, so I'm not sure that Jacob would take that as a softening towards him by Edward, especially after the previous events. I think the real turning point was the invitation.

I never thought of Edward interpreting Alice's loss of vision of Bella as her being in danger, rather, he knew it was just because of the wolves, but thought it dangerous that he couldn't see her at all times. You could be right though.

I want to point something out that you may not be aware of. In "Being Jacob Black" (it's like a Jacob fan's bible, so much information!) he says in the beginning how he feels bad for Edward, having to interrupt during the prom in Twilight. It's when he sees what's happened to Bella in New Moon that that loathing starts, and I don't think it can stop until Bella's safe and he no longer loves her, as much as they begin to work through it during BD.

Oh, in the grand scheme of things, Seth's reaction carries a HUGE significance. I just mean in terms of relations between Edward and Jacob. So there's not much else to say there except that I agree! I don't think there has ever been a precedent for this, actually.
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