Jacob Black #2

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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby Esme echo » Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:15 pm

I think Edward, Bella, and Renesmee would be very reluctant to split up Carlisle's and Esme's family; but when the time came for them to relocate, I think Jacob would turn the pack over to Sam and go with them. He's already said that Seth has to get back into school. He said he'd go back to school, too, when the uncertainty about Renesmee was resolved. He could go to school anywhere. Gosh, the Cullens could make him a HS transcript that would allow him to attend any college or university he wanted to round out his education.

Bella promised Charlie that when they did leave, they'd come back as frequently as they could . . . Jacob could be a long-distance pack leader--but what would be the point? There wouldn't be enough vampires about to require two packs, would there? Unless something else goes down with the Volturi, which I wouldn't expect for a few years, at least. So, yeah. Jacob would leave when the Cullen family left, pick up what education he could, and in general make the Volturi even more envious of Carlisle's family. I feel bad for Billy, though. He's the one who's going to be left alone.
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby Jazz Girl » Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:52 pm

I don't believe there's any way that Jacob could be split from Ness. Not for any long period of time, at least. Jacob's choice, if you could even call it that, will always be to be where Ness is, no matter what. And, as we find out, his allegiance to his imprintee supercedes his allegiance to the pack. At least, that's how I always interpreted teh fact that the highest pack rule was to never do anything to harm another wolf's imprintee. That seemed to me to be even stronger than the alpha command order. So, in a sense, everything else just falls by to the wayside. It sort of falls to everyone else to accomodate or make plans as they will. He will make a life wherever Edward & Bella choose to make their life with Ness. And, while they might not life with the Cullens, maybe taking the Em & Rose route and living as a young family for a time, they will always be close to the rest of the family. Jake will just be the long lost cousin or something.

Seth and Leah can run with Sam's pack when Jacob leaves. I never really saw Jake as the bookish type, so my thought is that school isn't that high a priority for him. He always seemed to enjoy more hands on pursuits. So, maybe, wherever they end up, he would like to attend technical school or open a garage. Whatever he ends up doing, it will be something that will allow him to be close to Ness. Though, I do agree. Billy is kind of left odd man out, since he sort of seems on the outs with Charlie again, since Charlie is, I think, with Sue.

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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby Amanda Beth » Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:25 pm

I had to think about how that would work since my fanfics are canon and take place post-BD. The first fanfic takes place when they moved to West Virginia, but in the second the finally moved back to Oregon, near Forks (but far enough away not to create more shape-shifters)--and Jake moved with them and restored cars and in Oregon he did go to community college since the Cullens were so big on education. I had Leah go to college actually, and not come back, because I never thought she'd stick around, and Seth was the acting pack leader as the "beta" but without vampires in Forks there was less need for the wolves so having a "leader" wasn't as necessary. He did go back to visit when he wasn't living there though--bringing Renesmee a few times, but the Cullens couldn't since not all of the tribe knew of the Quileute secret and therefore the Cullen secret and immortality.

I think Jake will always be with the Cullens.
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby swedishskinjer » Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:10 pm

chewie1bernie wrote:I have to say I will always be kinda split up on either being Team Edward or Team Jacob. But, in my opinion, everything about Edward radiates coldness. While everything about Jacob radiates warmth. Jacob is a warm person I think. He really cares for Bella and he wouldn't give up at all. I like that, he didn't just stop when she made her feelings clear. I really respect that I guess.


I strongly disagree. Due to his vampirism, Edward is technically "cold", but arguing that his personality is cold? How could you possibly defend such a nonsensical claim after all of Edward's sacrifices? After everything that he did to ensure Bella's happiness, even by reducing his own? After all of their romance, which was anything but "cold"? Are you implying that Edward doesn't care about Bella and therefore lacks warmth?

Yes, Jacob is a warm character who will always be the close friend, but arguing that Edward is cold makes no sense. Some of the tenderest moments in the series come from his love for Bella. By using the general definition of a "cold" personality, Edward does not fit due to the sacrificial and warm nature of his actions, which were never self-serving.
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby Esme echo » Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:54 pm

(this is an impulsive, off-the-cuff response . . . just so you're warned not to take me too seriously . . .)

To be fair, Edward is a little stiff on and off through much of the series. All that angst. Though I am technically "Team Edward," his cold physical temperature would kind of turn me off, too. It's so much more fun cuddling up to someone warm!

Emotionally, I'd have to vote with Edward being the "warmest." Jacob just wasn't experienced enough--even though he was wonderful most of the time, he had a too much self-interest in his relationship with Bella to be really romantic (in my poor opinion!).
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby swedishskinjer » Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:10 pm

Esme echo wrote:(this is an impulsive, off-the-cuff response . . . just so you're warned not to take me too seriously . . .)

To be fair, Edward is a little stiff on and off through much of the series. All that angst. Though I am technically "Team Edward," his cold physical temperature would kind of turn me off, too. It's so much more fun cuddling up to someone warm!

Emotionally, I'd have to vote with Edward being the "warmest." Jacob just wasn't experienced enough--even though he was wonderful most of the time, he had a too much self-interest in his relationship with Bella to be really romantic (in my poor opinion!).


I think that people tend to misconstrue Edward's restraint throughout the series and equate it with coldness, which isn't exactly the case (he did have to fight off what he perceived as his true, monstrous nature, after all). He felt that Bella should pursue a human lifestyle, even if it had to be with Jacob, and so he spent much of time with attempts to dissuade her from stepping too much into his world and all of its inherent dangers. When he was keeping a distance from Bella, it was only out of an overwhelming sense of love and protectiveness (even if he had to protect her from himself).

Also, I believe that Bella grew accustomed to Edward's normal body temperature due to the closeness and understanding in their relationship. As cheesy as this may sound (and it will sound incredibly cheesy), he compensated for his lack of body heat with the warmth of pure, sacrificial love that came from within.

What bothered me in Eclipse would be that Bella wasn't able to defend Edward much from Jacob's prejudice. Jacob was openly questioning the strength of Edward's love for Bella with his arrogant attitude, and he even engaged in degrading by referring to him as nothing more than a drug. In fact, I would say that Jacob annoyed me throughout most of the third book, from his forceful, dishonest behavior with Bella -- a taken woman, might I add -- to his claim that he would be a more desirable choice due to the fact that there would be fewer complications.

Ah, but those complications only strengthened Bella's relationship with Edward in the end.

However, Jacob did have one fairly solid argument: Bella would have been able to move on if Edward never returned. Would she be the same, though? No, I don't think so. There would always be a piece of her heart that belonged to Edward, and not even Jacob would be able to claim that. However, what's important is that Edward *DID* return.
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:07 pm

Hmm. Can we really fault the kid for speaking his heart? I mean, at the point where he says the thing about Edward being a drug, he's already accepted that it's over. It's their goodbye. I also think maybe you're misconstruing the way he meant it a little bit??

The (almost) exact quote is "He's like a drug for you Bella. I can see that now. You can't be without him. But I would have been healthier for you. I would have been the sun, and the air." What he's saying here is that he recognizes the depth of their love, and that he can't beat that strange connection, but that in the regular world, he would have been meant for her. And I think it's true that in some ways her relationship with Jacob is healthier than her relationship with Edward.

I think that it's a little unfair to judge him for his feelings, and for sharing them with Bella. They were, right there, having a true and honest moment, that's what makes that chapter so beautiful for me.

Plus, it's not as if Edward didn't show his own prejudices.
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby swedishskinjer » Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:52 am

Don't get me wrong, though. I really like Jacob as a character, but Eclipse was a tad bit difficult sometimes due to his attitude with Bella. I normally have to skip over the kiss before the battlefield, because that scene represents something more than respectfully expressing feelings: it's taking them to an unacceptable level. I was surprised when Edward said that he could not be angered, since the "that should have been our first kiss" line bothered me.

Overall, my belief is that Edward is not an unhealthy choice for Bella. From any objective perspective, their relationship is not abusive. He does not hit her. He rarely is mad at her. He appreciates compromise. His intentions are nearly always selfless. They are able to have fun, communicate, and share their love on a level that many couples cannot. I simply can't see how a relationship like that is fundamentally unhealthy, unless the unhealthy part comes from his vampirism. After seeing how developed the Cullens are, I'm not sure if I could accept that their condition is unhealthy. Perhaps it's unnatural to humans, but they aren't exactly unhealthy, since they are some of the most "human" characters in the entire series. It's no more unhealthy than Jacob possessing the "werewolf gene", in my opinion.

Yes, Bella and Edward have to overcome many obstacles, doubts, fears, etc. But I think of that as a strengthening, and not necessarily unhealthy. Breaking Dawn itself represents the culmination of their hard work: complete togetherness.

Maybe Jacob started to realize that Bella wasn't his "true love" after the failed attempts to force an imprinting on her, which would have naturally happened after his first transformation? He just had to settle with being the true friend.
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby Jazz Girl » Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:15 pm

Jacob's contention that he would be a "healthier" option did always rub me a bit wrong. I can't think of a way to spin the "He's like a drug for you," comment that does not have a negative connotation, make a negative comparison to Edward. But, that's not surprising either. Jake hates Edward, especially at that time. But, I've never really been sure how he figured "healthier". The only way I could ever make sense out of it was to go back to Jacob wanting Bella to choose his version of alive, ie with a heartbeat and breathing. It just doesn't make sense any other way to me.

swedishskinjer wrote:Maybe Jacob started to realize that Bella wasn't his "true love" after the failed attempts to force an imprinting on her, which would have naturally happened after his first transformation? He just had to settle with being the true friend.


SwedishSkinjer~ You bring up a very good point. While we have SM's assurance that Jake would in fact be the natural path of Bella's life if vampires and werewolves did not exist, I have always wondered about that. If Jake and Bella were truly meant to be soul mates, as that comment essentially contends, wouldn't it follow that he would imprint on her as a wolf? Jacob clung to the idea that he loved Bella, that they were meant to be together. But, I always wondered if that did have more to do with the fact that he wanted her to choose him and his life. He even tries to force himself to imprint on her at one point, later saying that he refuses to see anyone else in that role. I have seen some criticism of Bella that dismisses her continued choice of Edward as stubbornly clinging to something without really looking at realities. But, in that case, couldn't the same be said for Jacob?
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:57 pm

If you're speaking of my criticisms of Bella then you are STILL twisting my words. I do not dismiss her choice, I simply think that she didn't really consider what she was giving up until the end of Eclipse, simply because she was so focused on her love for Edward that she didn't realize what she WAS giving up.

Maybe I can clear up some of your confusion? Since I think we should take what SM says about her characters and story as fact, I see it like this. Jacob was meant to be with Bella in a world without vampires, ergo without werewolves, ergo without imprinting. So no, he wouldn't necessarily have to imprint on her, because he's her human destiny, but fate overrides that, and gave him Nessie and her Edward.
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