Jacob Black #2

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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby Jazz Girl » Sat Dec 05, 2009 1:28 am

HofJ~ No, I wasn't referring to your criticisms at all. I was referring to abother discussion I've had with a friend, as well as a magazine article that I read. It doesn't mean I disagree any less.

I'm not contending at all that SM's statements about Jacob are not fact. What I am saying is that I always thought that some didn't quite mesh with certain occurances in the books. And this happened to be one of them. That's the beauty of literature. I can read something one way, and someone else can interpret the exact same passage another way, and neither of us read it the way the author thought it came across. Doesn't necessarily make any of us wrong. To my mind, soul mates are always soul mates, regardless of what the universe throws at them, they will find a way to find each other, to be with each other. The idea that EVERYTHING in the world happens for a reason. So perhaps, the entire reason vampires and shapeshifters exist and Edward fell ill and was turned in 1918 by the single most compassionate man in history, so that he could live the long life he needed to meet his soul mate and Jake was in Bella's life in the way he was was specifically because his soul mate was the hybrid daughter of his best friend who had to be half immortal to live up to his strength.
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby Amanda Beth » Sat Dec 05, 2009 1:34 am

I think I like Jake's attitude because it's more real to me. Edward is so Prince-Charming-On-A-White-Horse-Happily-Ever-After-The-End "perfect" that it makes it feel even more fanciful than it already is. Jake to me is real. He's a real boy, with real feelings, and a real reaction about the girl he loves doing something he believes is wrong.
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby Esme echo » Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:06 am

I wonder why so many of the Quileute boys imprinted. It was supposed to be rare. Why . . . in this generation . . . did so many imprint?

It's easy to forget how quickly New Moon - Eclipse happened. Bella wakes up from her zombieness mid-January. Alice shows up mid-March. That's only two months of Bella and Jacob hanging out together. That's not long. The end of Eclipse is around mid-June . . . that's only three months. Tell me I'm old fashioned, but the Jacob part of the story--only FIVE months total--is a factor.

Looking at Bella and Edward, they were a couple for six months--together night and day--before her birthday drove Edward to bail on her. He was gone for six months, and when he came back they were together again--night and day--for four more months before Bella decided absolutely she wanted to marry him.

Jacob fell hard for Bella, but he didn't have a lot of time with her to build their relationship. Even when Edward was gone, Jacob spent a lot of time performing his werewolf duties and he and Bella were not together a lot. But, when Edward was there, he and Bella were together day and night. Jacob was at a great disadvantage, time-wise, in his ability to be with Bella and make an impact on her life.
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby Amanda Beth » Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:57 pm

Well according to the lex's timeline Bella already wanted to be with Edward forever and be changed after knowing him for 2 months and he was only in her bed/officially "dating" her for 2 weeks before the James ordeal... so Jacob being in love with Bella is not that far off when Bella was ready to give up everything after technically only dating a guy for 2 weeks.

I don't know if imprinting was rare or it was only because there were only 3 in a pack before. Ten wolves and by the end of Eclipse it was only Jake, Paul, Quil, and Sam. 17 by the end of BD but of course we don't know most of them. A larger sample of a population will normally result it a larger number of imprints. They had to start taking those legends with a grain of salt because of Leah being a werewolf when before it was only grandsons.
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby swedishskinjer » Sat Dec 05, 2009 4:41 pm

Amanda Beth wrote:I think I like Jake's attitude because it's more real to me. Edward is so Prince-Charming-On-A-White-Horse-Happily-Ever-After-The-End "perfect" that it makes it feel even more fanciful than it already is. Jake to me is real. He's a real boy, with real feelings, and a real reaction about the girl he loves doing something he believes is wrong.


I understand what you're saying, but I can't agree with your conclusion about Edward Cullen. In the series, we are looking at Edward through the perspective of a human narrator who cannot perceive the flaws of an immortal so easily. Therefore, he will be described as "perfect" due to the fact that, to a human, he's supposed to be impossibly immaculate in nearly every imaginable way. That's how his kind lures. In the draft of Midnight Sun, which is seen through his perspective, Edward is presented as a much more fractured being who has genuine human feelings about life and his soul. I think that it's tremendously important to see the world from Edward's perspective, because he certainly doesn't look at himself as a Prince Charming. How could you read the entire series and think of him as "perfect"? Remember, it took a lot of work, compromise, and understanding to reach his happy ending with Bella, including brushes with death. Edward and Bella experienced fear, loss, anger, etc...there's nothing even remotely fanciful and unrealistic about that.

Edward is real. Yes, he is a vampire (like Jacob is a werewolf who is also able to conceal his condition; that doesn't make him any less real), but he has feelings. He's not devoid of emotion. He's unsure about his soul. He has fears and interests. If you try to read the story and think of Edward as a human, then it's surprisingly easy to see just how human he is at the core. In all of the books, Edward is a charming guy, but he's able to smile, laugh, sacrifice, dirty himself for the sake of love, etc. He's no pretentious Prince Charming, and he makes many mistakes.

I understand Jacob's intentions, but it's my opinion that he was slightly annoying throughout most of Eclipse (any snap, hormonal decisions that I repeatedly make aren't excusable just because I'm young, after all). Like I said, Jacob being more than human doesn't reduce the fact that he still has a basic humanity at his core. Why can't vampires be exactly the same if you try to perceive the world from their perspective? Due to the complexity of their existence, many vampires understand emotions much more than any human possibly could.

If vampires and werewolves didn't exist, then there's a chance that Bella wouldn't have even been with Jacob. Personally, I interpreted Stephenie's comments differently: Jacob represents what Bella would have in a sane, human world, but her human mate wouldn't necessarily be Jacob himself. If the Twilight world was different, then there would be no Edward leaving, which means that Bella wouldn't have connected with Jacob in the same way. If no werewolves existed, then the history of the tribe would be altered, making it possible that Jacob would be conceived differently, etc. It's like heading into the past and significantly changing the future with just a few minor tweaks.
Last edited by swedishskinjer on Sat Dec 05, 2009 4:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby Amanda Beth » Sat Dec 05, 2009 4:51 pm

i dont know how you guys write so much lol
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby swedishskinjer » Sat Dec 05, 2009 4:52 pm

Amanda Beth wrote:i dont know how you guys write so much lol


Well, there's a lot to say about these characters. It's a testament of their depth, I suppose. :lol:

Well according to the lex's timeline Bella already wanted to be with Edward forever and be changed after knowing him for 2 months and he was only in her bed/officially "dating" her for 2 weeks before the James ordeal... so Jacob being in love with Bella is not that far off when Bella was ready to give up everything after technically only dating a guy for 2 weeks.


If you believe in the concept of true love (which works in mysterious ways), then that isn't necessarily a bad thing. As time went on, Bella became much more informed. By the end of Eclipse, I do believe that she was ready for Edward. You could say that Bella and Edward had their own "imprinting" when they first met. Especially after he saved her life more than once in Twilight. By no means was Edward any normal "human guy" who was only interested in Bella for her body.

That kind of love -- emotional, intellectual -- made them worthy of one another.
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby amethyst » Sat Dec 05, 2009 5:28 pm

swedishskinjer wrote:I understand Jacob's intentions, but it's my opinion that he was slightly annoying throughout most of Eclipse (any snap, hormonal decisions that I repeatedly make aren't excusable just because I'm young, after all). Like I said, Jacob being more than human doesn't reduce the fact that he still has a basic humanity at his core. Why can't vampires be exactly the same if you try to perceive the world from their perspective? Due to the complexity of their existence, many vampires understand emotions much more than any human possibly could.

That’s the backbone to why I dislike Jacob so much in Eclipse, and in truth parts of New Moon and Breaking Dawn. He has no boundaries, no limits and at times very little dignity when interacting with Bella. His alleged “saving her life” on his part was motivated by no more than self-interest, so I can hardly attribute altruistic motivations to them, as others would.

I would have to disagree with you one thing, even though I should mention that everything you ever wrote (in the Bella Swan thread, and this one) I absolutely agree with. However, I find it a bit hard to agree that Jacob made Bella’s and Edward’s relationship and Bella’s decision to be with Edward forever *stronger* (you mentioned this in a previous post). After New Moon, I find it hard to believe that Bella’s decision to become a vampire could get any more profound or any more stronger. It just isn’t possible. So regardless of the realization that she is in love with Jacob, it did no more good to her relationship with Edward any more than it did to Jacob.

To end this post on a more positive note: I should mention, that a few days ago as I was spending much too much time inside of my head, I realized that there are a few things that I actually admire about his character. For one, his security and confidence. And the fact that he doesn’t hold back and suffer in silence when someone hurts him. I also made the connection with “Yaqub” and “Jacob”. Jacob is the English version, while “Ya’qub” is the Arabic version. And I simply was in love with the Arabic version and its pronunciation, now the English version is a favourite name of mine.

And now that I am thinking of Jacob’s name -- does anyone find it coincidental that Jacob was a prophet (as far as I know, in both Islam and Christianity). And In the books his role was to deliver a message and present a choice. I am not trying to bring up religion or anything. Far from it. I just thought this connection is very interesting. ;)
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby swedishskinjer » Sat Dec 05, 2009 7:12 pm

amethyst wrote:
swedishskinjer wrote:I understand Jacob's intentions, but it's my opinion that he was slightly annoying throughout most of Eclipse (any snap, hormonal decisions that I repeatedly make aren't excusable just because I'm young, after all). Like I said, Jacob being more than human doesn't reduce the fact that he still has a basic humanity at his core. Why can't vampires be exactly the same if you try to perceive the world from their perspective? Due to the complexity of their existence, many vampires understand emotions much more than any human possibly could.

That’s the backbone to why I dislike Jacob so much in Eclipse, and in truth parts of New Moon and Breaking Dawn. He has no boundaries, no limits and at times very little dignity when interacting with Bella. His alleged “saving her life” on his part was motivated by no more than self-interest, so I can hardly attribute altruistic motivations to them, as others would.

I would have to disagree with you one thing, even though I should mention that everything you ever wrote (in the Bella Swan thread, and this one) I absolutely agree with. However, I find it a bit hard to agree that Jacob made Bella’s and Edward’s relationship and Bella’s decision to be with Edward forever *stronger* (you mentioned this in a previous post). After New Moon, I find it hard to believe that Bella’s decision to become a vampire could get any more profound or any more stronger. It just isn’t possible. So regardless of the realization that she is in love with Jacob, it did no more good to her relationship with Edward any more than it did to Jacob.

To end this post on a more positive note: I should mention, that a few days ago as I was spending much too much time inside of my head, I realized that there are a few things that I actually admire about his character. For one, his security and confidence. And the fact that he doesn’t hold back and suffer in silence when someone hurts him. I also made the connection with “Yaqub” and “Jacob”. Jacob is the English version, while “Ya’qub” is the Arabic version. And I simply was in love with the Arabic version and its pronunciation, now the English version is a favourite name of mine.

And now that I am thinking of Jacob’s name -- does anyone find it coincidental that Jacob was a prophet (as far as I know, in both Islam and Christianity). And In the books his role was to deliver a message and present a choice. I am not trying to bring up religion or anything. Far from it. I just thought this connection is very interesting. ;)


Honestly, something that I admire about Edward's character is his representation of restraint. Wanting someone so badly and yet repressing your deepest passions for the greater good is fascinating. Conversely, Jacob indulges when it comes to his passion, and he's not afraid to externalize it. I think that makes him slightly reckless, since many of his actions with Bella are seemingly dictated by hormonal smugness. I would absolutely agree that he's not too mature when it comes to forgoing self-interest, whereas Edward seems to be encouraging his love's relationship with Jacob during the events of Breaking Dawn, despite his own romantic aspirations. As far as Jacob's age is concerned, I've always considered that this was Edward's first relationship, too. He spent his entire existence, both human and vampire, as a loner with no true grasp of love. That he was around some of the most beautiful immortals imaginable (the Denali sisters) and still expressed no interest is telling.

However, despite my firm belief that Jacob is not Bella's true love in the world of Twilight, he is still the truest friend that she could possibly have. A lot of his actions in New Moon solidified the relationship between Edward and Bella, since he was responsible for furthering the series of miscommunications that led into Edward's little confrontation with the Volturi. This then resulted in Bella's ultimate epiphany: Edward's love for her was profound, and he would not be leaving. Struggling with the idea of receiving love without sacrificing morality presented a choice that she still rejected, showing her dedication to Edward transcended our definitions for humanity. Jacob represented this choice rather poorly at times, but ultimately rejecting what could have been a smoother road was a supreme testament to Bella's courage by acknowledging another choice...and still taking the hard way. Sometimes, what's right isn't necessarily easy.

Some fans argue that Jacob had little self-interest, but a lot of his actions were motivated by romantic selfishness. He wanted Bella to choose him. He wanted her to love him. He knew that he was her most meaningful connection to humanity, and he exploited this advantage as much as possible in order to claim her heart. He even tried to imprint on her, which was rather deluded, in my opinion.

Do many prophets in spiritual texts deliver their messages with self-interest as a motivation? I'm not sure about that, to be perfectly honest. Jacob was unswervingly sure about the superiority of humanity, despite the fact that he isn't exactly human himself (and yet he still retained his basic humanity, like the Cullen coven). Bella didn't think that the Cullens were superior, since they had a profound respect for human life. She just believed that they were right for her unique life. Jacob was just a bit too preachy at times.

You know, one of my disappointments with Eclipse is that Edward was barely able to defend himself, save for the tent scene. One of his best responses to Jacob in the entire book would have to be, "You see, Jacob, you might leave her someday. Like Sam and Emily, you wouldn’t have a choice. I would always be waiting in the wings, hoping for that to happen." I was waiting for a satisfactory reply after Jacob's "not even a person" line about Edward.

Persistence is a good thing, but not when it's hopelessly blind. I strongly believe that Bella was challenging herself in each book, from struggling with the choice that Jacob represented to discussing life as a vampire with the Cullens. As Alice noted, she was a rare human who had so much mental preparation before the transformation. If Bella wasn't emotionally ready, then she wouldn't have been so controlled as a newborn immortal with her adoptive family. Furthermore, Stephenie has even said that she could easily imagine Bella interacting with other humans under the care of Carlisle, to an extent that would allow her to attend college and start taking night classes. :lol:
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby twilight_luva_4eva » Fri Dec 11, 2009 11:23 pm

Omg I actually DO LOVE Jacob! He is such a loyal, funny, protective, loving person! He deserves Bella majorly! But now that you've pointed it out, he hasn't really spent much time with her has he? But all his thoughts in Breaking Dawn. It was soo sad! Especially in chapter 17: WHAT DO I LOOK LIKE? THE WIZARD OF OZ? YOU NEED A BRAIN? YOU NEED A
HEART? GO AHEAD. TAKE MINE. TAKE EVERYTHING I HAVE. I feel so sorry for him! All that emotion... :cry:
Plus, Jacob is SOOO HOTT in the movie!!!! lol
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