The Quileutes ~A.K.A. The La Push Gang

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Re: The Quileutes ~A.K.A. The La Push Gang

Postby SunnySummerSunshine » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:28 am

Hi. My name is Sunny and I'm new on this thread, or atleast I think it's a thread. ^^"
It was probably the whole reason I joined the Lex. I wanted to hear other people's thought's on this one question of mine.

So, suppose that Jacob didn't imprint on Renesmee (Don't get me wrong, I love the girl! She's adorable!) but imprinted on a normal human girl. Now my question is that, since Jacob forfeited his place as alpha even though it was in his blood, in the next pack, will Jacob's son be alpha or will Sam's son be alpha? (Disregarding the shifting first thing, just by the bloodline.)

Its been bugging me for a while. Please tell me your opinions. :)
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Re: The Quileutes ~A.K.A. The La Push Gang

Postby ringswraith » Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:57 pm

Assuming Jacob has a son (and there are vampires nearby), he will be the next Alpha. As you said, this considers bloodline only- the fact that Jacob essentially shirked his birthright does not mean it's no longer his to claim.

And even if Jacob had no sons, there are at least two others who could produce offspring that would trump Sam's son's claim to Alpha (Quil and Seth) by bloodline alone.
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Re: The Quileutes ~A.K.A. The La Push Gang

Postby SunnySummerSunshine » Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:30 am

ringswraith wrote:And even if Jacob had no sons, there are at least two others who could produce offspring that would trump Sam's son's claim to Alpha (Quil and Seth) by bloodline alone.


I dont' recall that Quil had any connection to Ephraim Black. He's Jacob's cousin because Jacob's mother was a descendant of Quil Ateara(The III?). And I also don't recall there ever being a mentioning that Seth was related to Ephraim.

Also, It says that it is Jacob's right as Alpha because his great grandfather(Ephraim) was the last leader of the tribe. Considering that now Sam is the leader, I was curious as to who's children would have the position.
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Re: The Quileutes ~A.K.A. The La Push Gang

Postby ringswraith » Wed Feb 24, 2010 3:25 am

SunnySummerSunshine wrote:I dont' recall that Quil had any connection to Ephraim Black. He's Jacob's cousin because Jacob's mother was a descendant of Quil Ateara(The III?). And I also don't recall there ever being a mentioning that Seth was related to Ephraim.

Also, It says that it is Jacob's right as Alpha because his great grandfather(Ephraim) was the last leader of the tribe. Considering that now Sam is the leader, I was curious as to who's children would have the position.


Couple things:

First off, you mentioned by blood only. That automatically discounts Sam's offspring as possible Alpha, because his position was not inherited, but granted. (Of course, this doesn't stop his son from becoming Alpha as he did- by being the first to phase.) Sam may be the leader of the (larger) Pack now, but he doesn't have that direct link to Ephraim either.

Next, when I mentioned Quil and Seth, I did not mean to imply that they had a direct bloodline link to Ephraim Black. What I meant was that they have a stronger bloodline than Sam (that is, if I remember correctly, both Quil and Seth have "wolfblood" from both sides of their families. Witness Jacob's claim that it was hopeless for Quil not to end up a wolf, and Leah's opinion that Seth would have been Alpha if not for Jacob's presence). Therefore, in my opinion, they have more wolf in their blood than Sam, and so their kids could theoretically contest the claim to Alpha.
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Re: The Quileutes ~A.K.A. The La Push Gang

Postby dazzledBrit » Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:26 am

Jacob's birthright is traced back to Ephraim being the last Alpha. I don't think it's mentioned in the books why Ephraim was the Alpha then though...maybe he was only Alpha because he was the first to change, not because he was the cloest descendant of the previous Alpha?

Actually being Alpha (and tribe leader) seems to be very important. Although Jacob chooses to be an Alpha, he doesn't want to lead the tribe, so the claims of Sam's sons would IMO still be good.

Who would be Alpha in the event of both Sam and Jacob having sons and both changing? I don't know. Especially if Jacob had a son with Renesmee...his son would then be some kind of super-halfbreed...would he even be a shape shifter? Would he be Quileute enough? Can Renesmee even have children???? I assume so because Jacob imprinted but that's not explained.
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Re: The Quileutes ~A.K.A. The La Push Gang

Postby SunnySummerSunshine » Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:10 pm

I'm REALLY confused now. @_@

So Jacob has the right because he's the last pack's leader's descendant. Since Sam is now leader of the pack doesn't that mean that his descendents will have the right as alpha? (In the situation where Jake is still in the Sam's pack and didn't imprint on Renesmee.)

(Sorry if I'm not getting what you're trying to say, ringswraith. I get the importance and possibilities of them, but can't exactly connect them to my current knowledge.)
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Re: The Quileutes ~A.K.A. The La Push Gang

Postby ringswraith » Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:22 am

I think the issue is because you're asking about bloodline, but are also considering Sam's claim to Alpha despite not being the true Alpha of the current Pack. Remember that Sam's authority is assumed, not granted by ties to their ancestors. Because of Jacob's initial reluctance to don the Alpha mantle, and Sam's position as the first to phase, this complicated matters. There really should only be one, but that would involve a challenge- one that could prove fatal to at least one of the participants.

The thing is we don't know for sure what will happen in the generations to come. We don't know for sure that Renesmee can bear children (not arguing that here, just stating that we have no concrete proof that it's possible), we don't know how many generations would pass before the wolf "gene" is triggered again, we don't know who will be first, and so on.

Assuming they all had children, and were at a point where they needed to form a Pack, the choices for Alpha would likely be:

Jacob's descendants over Sam's descendants, which could be contested by descendants of Quil and/or Seth, assuming Jacob had no offspring.

For me, Sam's claim is a tenuous one. However, I am also making the assumption that Ephraim Black was Alpha because his ancestor was Alpha, and so on into the past (therefore assuming one family is always the main candidate for Alpha).
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Re: The Quileutes ~A.K.A. The La Push Gang

Postby SunnySummerSunshine » Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:26 am

THANK YOU!

That makes sense now, because I now recall (or made up) the part where someone mentions the wolves hierarchy.

I can FINALLY sleep at nigt and not have to ponder about this.

Thanks again, ringswraith. :)
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Re: The Quileutes ~A.K.A. The La Push Gang

Postby dazzledBrit » Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:58 am

If Ephraim was Alpha only because he was the first to change NOT because of being descended from the previous Alpha, then both Sam and Jacob's sons would have Alpha rights as both Sam and Jacob are Alphas. But if there was only one pack in future generations, then in that situation, it would probably be who changed first of Sam and Jacob's descendants.

Hey, random fact - Black is actually a common surname in La Push. :) And Clearwater is a place on the coast south of La Push. I never realised till recently how much SM took from reality.
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Re: The Quileutes ~A.K.A. The La Push Gang

Postby ringswraith » Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:36 am

dazzledBrit wrote:If Ephraim was Alpha only because he was the first to change NOT because of being descended from the previous Alpha, then both Sam and Jacob's sons would have Alpha rights as both Sam and Jacob are Alphas. But if there was only one pack in future generations, then in that situation, it would probably be who changed first of Sam and Jacob's descendants.


Actually, Jacob's son would have the stronger claim, because he is descended from Ephraim Black, and Sam's son isn't. Remember that Sam did offer Jacob the chance to be the Alpha. Of course, Jacob's son could be just like Jacob and not want to deal with it... :)

Cool thing, finding out those details. I'm actually thinking about how the main family is Black and yet it is Sam who has the black fur. :D
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