Edward and Bella 2

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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby December » Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:11 pm

Yes, there's been a lot of discussion of this subject over the years -- some of it extremely illuminating, some of it perhaps less edifying, and rather, er, fractious. If you're interested in going back to the very beginnings of the debate over Edward's more ...um...high-handed behaviour and whether one finds it understandable or obnoxious, you might enjoy having a look at Tennyo's original "Edward-Controlling?" threads in the Lexicon Archive, which date back even before EC came out....

Ed-Con #1
Ed-Con #2

(I hope I'm not stirring up trouble here...).

And just a reminder -- which I'm sure none of you needs! -- that this is a perennially touchy subject. Please please be extra-specially careful to express your views moderately, with respect and courtesy towards other people who may feel differently. We're not here to challenge each other's opinions, just to explain our own, and ideally learn something from other people's varied viewpoints.

Ok, sorry. Just had to say that. (*grin*)
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby Jazz Girl » Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:07 pm

Hmmmmm, the dazzling. Well, first, I don't think it is always intentional at all. I think, for the most part, it is a byproduct of his physical attractiveness, that overall sensory appeal. While there were times I was bothered by Edward intentionally dazzling Bella, once he realized that was what he did, when he had an ulterior motive (the first time he takes her running, when he wants to distract her from conversation), I also never saw it as a bad or negative thing. Like Rollie, it almost seemed second nature, or something that he wasn't even aware he was doing. As I said, the first time Bella points it out to him, he is surprised. She asks him if that's what he means to do, and he's surprised by her description of his unintentional effect on people. He does figure out how to use it, when he feels he needs to. But, Bella also figures out how to avoid his dazzling effects. I kind of chalk it up to very similar to what I do sometimes with my hubs when I don't really want to argue about something, batting my eyelashes and snuggling into his chest. We all have those things we do with out partners. My hubs plays with my hair. :lol:

The only way in which I think Edward ever consciously tried to manipulate Bella was in trying to make her afraid of him, or trying to distance himself from her. Once he made the decision to try and be with her, we was very conscious of giving her a choice in everything.

Desiree~ I seriously laugh at the contention that Edward was overbearing because he drove her around. Nine times out of ten, when my hubs and I go anywhere, I drive, particularly when we take my car. It has nothing to do with being overbearing, it has to do with I get out to the car first and he likes being able to read and talk in the car. But, I will say, Edward has a good point, very early on. He is the much better driver, if for no other reason than his superior reflexes. But, Bella is distracted by his mere presence, further calling her driving abilities into question.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby Bellsuz » Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:48 pm

rollie715 wrote: It is interesting that on the surface, the Lion and the Lamb stereotype is seen as Edward the Predator Lion and Bella the Prey Lamb, just as in Pride and Prejudice our 'first impressions' of who has the Pride and who has the Prejudice seem to get reversed as we understand the story better. To me, Edward was the Lamb trying to protect himself and Bella was the Lion who pursued him relentlessly.


Hi Rollie :) *waves*

I'm glad you brought the reversal up. I've always thought of Edward being the lamb, and whether it be me not paying attention to others conversations or just being oblivious...I haven't heard many people talk about it in that light. Or it's assumed to be that way and I was just wrong in thinking it could be portrayed both ways, i dunno, but I'm glad to finally see someone say it so I don't keep thinking...who's the lion and who's the lamb??!??!! *scratches head* I actually think Edward is the lamb in many of the cases throughout the Saga.

Sorry to butt in and for the short post but I usually just creep around reading and shaking my head in agreement as far as the boards are concerned. Great discussion going on!!!
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby vampirelover109 » Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:55 pm

i think there is nothing unselfish about edward everything he did every descision was for bella he left her because he wanted her to have a better life even though it hurt him so much to leave her in the first place he let bellas relationship with jacob develop because its what bella wanted efven though it was so hard for him to witness in bd when bella needed him there :)
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby vampirenerd » Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:16 am

rollie715 wrote: To me, Edward was the Lamb trying to protect himself and Bella was the Lion who pursued him relentlessly. Edward felt weak, vulnerable, afraid, and not in control, exactly the feelings any normal adolescent boy has when dealing with his first serious relationship. He tried to stay away from her, he warned her to keep her distance, and continually tried to keep himself in control when she was around. Initially his focus was only on himself and coming to grips with his own feelings, but that developed into an interest in her and a feeling of responsibility that included wanting to take care of and protect her. He had a natural tendency to overact and that came out in his over protectiveness. I see his controlling behavior as a result of an adolescent with super powers who was trying to come to grips with the more mature role of learning to be a provider and protector. I don't believe he handled it all perfectly, as none of us do as we go through these changes, but I do believe his heart and intentions were in the right place and would allow him to improve in the areas he was weak and actually become the kind of man any girl or woman would want as her own.

I don't condone destructive or controlling behavior or even defend every situation in the saga as recommended reading to impressionable young women, but instead view it as a wonderful opportunity to expose them to these issues and open up productive avenues of discussion.


I completely agree with the Bella/lion, Edward/lamb idea. It seems to me that Bella is always persuing Edward. In the beginning he pushes her away out of fear for his family b/c he doesn't believe that he can be around her (much less with her) without killing her. She doesn't accept this though, and insists on finding out more about him and trying to get to know him. Once he realizes that he's not going to be able to get rid of her or ignore the feelings he has for her he does try to control himself around her. Even after they begin seeing each other it's still hard for him to control himself and she seems to find it hard not to continually try to be nearer to him. I agree that once he resigned himself to the fact that he would be with her that he did try to control certain aspects of her life, not just to be controlling but b/c he truly thought that he knew better than her what would keep herself. Bella is a very strong-willed person when it comes to anything other than Edward. She wants to do her own thing and believes that she knows what is best. I'm not saying that one was wrong and the other was right. I think they are both extremely stubborn. But I will admit that i think most of Edward's controlling nature came from a desire to see Bella safe, no matter what.





rollie715 wrote:It appears that SM used the term Dazzled many times in the text, but I’m not sure I’ve seen it used in the movies. This refers to the ability Edward had to influence people to get what he wants, especially the females young and old. During the course of a conversation using his mannerisms, eyes, and words, he seemed to have the ability to effect the emotions of the prey and cause them to melt or yield to his wishes. I believe Edward did use these techniques on Bella, but I’m not sure they were always intentional or with malice. He probably developed these techniques naturally over the last 100 years as he experienced life as a new vampire and they just became part of his normal personality. Bella comments often of how she is influenced to change her thinking or behavior when he Dazzles her. His response sometimes, which I think is honest, is that he doesn’t always realize he is doing it. I’m guessing he had developed somewhat of an attitude of superiority towards humans, not only physically but as he could read their thoughts, he must have felt they were all so involved in such petty concerns, they may have even bored him.



When it comes to dazzling, I truly believe that until Bella called him on it he didn't realize what he was doing. He tells Bella at one poing that everything about him, his looks, his smell, are made to attract his prey (humans), to draw them in. I think that his ability to dazzle is one of the ways to draw them in. In the movies the only time I can recall him doing it to anyone else other than Bella is when he's with Angela and jessica outside the restaurant. I don't think it's portrayed very well, but I think that's more to do with bad acting than anything else. I agree that he has developed somewhat of a superiority complex over humans. He has spent his whole vampire life being able to read the minds of all the humans around him, add that to his other vampire abilities and it is easy to see how something as insignificant (in his eyes) as dazzling would escape his notice.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby Jazz Girl » Fri Aug 13, 2010 7:12 pm

*raises a glass* *clears throat*

To Edward & Bella on their anniversary. May their forever be filled with love and joy. Gods know they've earned it. :D
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby corona » Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:47 pm

vampirenerd wrote:When it comes to dazzling, I truly believe that until Bella called him on it he didn't realize what he was doing. He tells Bella at one poing that everything about him, his looks, his smell, are made to attract his prey (humans), to draw them in. I think that his ability to dazzle is one of the ways to draw them in. In the movies the only time I can recall him doing it to anyone else other than Bella is when he's with Angela and jessica outside the restaurant. I don't think it's portrayed very well, but I think that's more to do with bad acting than anything else. I agree that he has developed somewhat of a superiority complex over humans. He has spent his whole vampire life being able to read the minds of all the humans around him, add that to his other vampire abilities and it is easy to see how something as insignificant (in his eyes) as dazzling would escape his notice.


SM pretty well covers the “dazzle” effect in other writings. Edward really was unaware of this effect until Bella clues him in on it. Although this isn’t canon, I think it would be a very fair assumption to say that Bella in particular was susceptible to it because she was so completely open to him.

Otherwise, the natural state of vampires is to both attract humans while subconsciously repelling them. The full dazzle effect doesn’t go into effect unless the vampire is suppressing those elements that cause the subconscious fears in humans. Edward wouldn’t have known because he never tried to be attractive to the only humans he ever hunted, murderers and rapists; he simply hunted and killed them. After that, Edward avoided humans in general and never got close to them or wanted to, until Bella came along.


Bella would be surprised that Edward doesn’t know about the effect because Edward never tells her how it works. Since he has never wanted to be close to a human before, he has never knowingly turned on his dazzle effect before. In Port Angeles, Bella accuses him of doing it all the time, but then she is always sitting front row for the full blast effect. Once Bella admits being dazzled by Edward, he is able to figure out what is happening and how to turn it on. Still, it’s not some kind of power that he can feel; he can only see the effects of it, which runs about 100% with Bella, so he’s good to go.

EDIT: Thank goodness for the Preview button. I was originally going to use the phrase “tool in his a.r.s.e.n.a.l.” and the board software changed it to “tool in his backside”, which I really don’t think Edward would appreciate.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby December » Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:59 am

corona wrote:EDIT: Thank goodness for the Preview button. I was originally going to use the phrase “tool in his a.r.s.e.n.a.l.” and the board software changed it to “tool in his backside”, which I really don’t think Edward would appreciate.

Ooops. We try to avoid having that sort of thing happen (*grin*). Looking for a solution....
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby Ilovetwilight0509 » Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:22 pm

December wrote:Yes, there's been a lot of discussion of this subject over the years -- some of it extremely illuminating, some of it perhaps less edifying, and rather, er, fractious. If you're interested in going back to the very beginnings of the debate over Edward's more ...um...high-handed behaviour and whether one finds it understandable or obnoxious, you might enjoy having a look at Tennyo's original "Edward-Controlling?" threads in the Lexicon Archive, which date back even before EC came out....

Ed-Con #1
Ed-Con #2

(I hope I'm not stirring up trouble here...).

And just a reminder -- which I'm sure none of you needs! -- that this is a perennially touchy subject. Please please be extra-specially careful to express your views moderately, with respect and courtesy towards other people who may feel differently. We're not here to challenge each other's opinions, just to explain our own, and ideally learn something from other people's varied viewpoints.

Ok, sorry. Just had to say that. (*grin*)


I am coming in at the end of this topic, but I have to say when I fist saw twilight I never new the interest behind it and I didn't care for it that much because he was grabby with bella and i thought controlling. My daughter actually snuck behind my recliner and was watching it with me, she was 4 and I later let her watch it, but I had to tell her that a man doesn't touch a woman like that. When I found out there were books and read the books the Edward character was almost completely different from what they wrote him as in the movie. If I remember from the book there is one situation that he might have grabbed her, but it wasn't the same feeling as the movie. I hope people aren't mad, but I think they wrote him wrong in the first movie. He did have a controlling feel and I am almost positive that rob said that in one or two interviews I saw with him way back when. When he seemed not to understand all the excitement.

Again, just my opinion. I don't want to get anyone mad. I just don't hear it being said that much and I wanted to voice my opinion.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby Jazz Girl » Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:12 am

Dawn~ Well, MR has stated all along that she consciously made decisions to change certain aspects of particularly both Edward & Bella's personalities in the transition from page to screen. I'm not really sure what you mean by "grabby" though, so I'm not quite sure how to respond. In the novels, Edward is always very conscious and very careful of everytime he touches Bella in any way. Part of it I always chalked up to his old-fashioned nature, but most of it I always felt was due to his ultimate need to protect her and his awareness that one wrong move while touching her could be disastrous. The passage in The Book That Shall Not Be Namedof the first time he reaches out to touch her cheek is really illuminating, as far as his efforts to control even the slightest touch.

As MovieWard, well, he's an altogether different animal, isn't he? But, there are precious few times I can remember him really doing what I would describe as "grabbing" Bella. When she trips in the greenhouse is one. And then, obviously, their first kiss. But, in my opinion, the grabbing going on in that scene is pretty mutual. Maybe if you expanded your idea of "grabby", we could chat on it.
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