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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby Jazz Girl » Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:47 pm

The girlie-wolf wrote:I don't agree.. he is in love with Bella.. she's his whole life... and she is going to become the thing that he hates the most... the worst thing that can be like he sees it...
If the love of your life wanted to die, let's use this word couse vamp don't really exist :( , you won't try to convince him, in every way possible, to save him?


As I said, I merely present another argument. Some of us have gone round and round on this and other threads about this very question. We pretty much agree to disagree because many espouse a very different view of what role Jacob SHOULD play in Bella's decision. IMO...Yes, at that point, she's his whole life ( a fact which he knows could very well change at any second and without recourse). But, he isn't hers. He hates what she wants to become. So what? He disagrees with the future she chooses, but that's not his choice. Her life is hers to do with as she sees fit and no one has the right to tell another person how to live their life. He is not in a position to attempt to dictate to her what she should and should not do with her future. As her best friend, sure, offering an opinion, giving her his thoughts and feelings is one thing. But, to actively manipulate against the choice she's so clearly made is entirely another.

As for the dying question, Bella wasn't going to die, was she? She would still be a thinking, feeling, sentient being capable of loving and living. Just because Jacob didn't agree with the family she was joining, the form she would take, doesn't make the decision any less Bella's or more Jacob's. No, she would no longer be human. But, neither was Jacob.
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby The girlie-wolf » Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:14 am

First, I agree with you that it wasn't his choice to make... that Bella chose her life to be like this and that's it. But he is a 16 years old boy who has no experiance in those things... the fact that he can imprint has nothing to do with the fact that he wants to save her now. and even after he imprints he still cares for her. Jacob can't look at it the way we do. he looked at the fact he knows: the vamps are his enemy, he hates them very much, the love of his life is going to become one, it's like dying for him. what do you think he'll do? just wait for her to become one and then he will be obligated to kill her? (BD has nothing to do here). he won't do that... for him she will become a living rock that he is unfamiliar with. a creature that was destined to kill and that's it. so of course he tries to save her from the worse thing in his eyes. in every possible way... he is only 16 and he makes mistakes... he is only human (sometime :lol: ) and he is not perfect like Edward... and he didn't choose to become a wolf! he wants to be human! he really does! but Bella chooses it! she WANTS to become a vamp, not like the others...and he is more human than them...
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby Jazz Girl » Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:41 am

Merely philosophical musings, but you bring up an interesting point, Girlie Wolf. And, given the forum, I'm pretty sure of the answer I'm going to get. But, I want to pose the question.

You say that Jacob is more human than, and I'm interpreting your meaning based on your inclusion of vampires, Edward, Bella (once she turns)or any of the Cullens because he did not choose to become a wolf. Granted. However, could it also be argued that the Cullens are more human because they consciously choose to hold on to their humanity by not killing any sentient being, where Jacob freely accepts and even welcomes the idea of killing the Cullens?
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby The girlie-wolf » Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:31 pm

my name is Shai :D

I didn't mean that he is more human couse he didn't choose it... I mean that he still has a heart, that he has blood, that he can age when he can control his anger.... everything about him is more human than a vampire...
I agree... the Cullens are a lot more human than any other vampire there is... they are good... but Jacob thinks in Eclipse that they are " bloodsucking leechs" like any other vampire... he don't know them well... and of course he will hate Edward because he wants Bella and he is jeulos... it's natural... and I'm proud of him that he understood that they are good...
But it doesn't matter about the humanity... Jacob is way more human than Edward is...
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:52 pm

Jazz Girl wrote:Merely philosophical musings, but you bring up an interesting point, Girlie Wolf. And, given the forum, I'm pretty sure of the answer I'm going to get. But, I want to pose the question.

You say that Jacob is more human than, and I'm interpreting your meaning based on your inclusion of vampires, Edward, Bella (once she turns)or any of the Cullens because he did not choose to become a wolf. Granted. However, could it also be argued that the Cullens are more human because they consciously choose to hold on to their humanity by not killing any sentient being, where Jacob freely accepts and even welcomes the idea of killing the Cullens?


I would classify Jacob as "more human" simply because he can turn it off. He's still a mortal. Once he stops phasing, he'll get old and die. Well, now he won't because he'll just keep phasing to stay with Nessie, but that's irrelevant.

I also think that more than just the technicalities we're discussing here, it's clear (to me at least) that he represents humanity. At least in the case of Bella's "decision" (which we all know wasn't a decision, so let's call it her options). He represented a life with children and age and eventual death. All the human things that I, personally, hold so dear. Of course, Bella never was particularly atatched to any of them.

I also think it's worth noting that in New Moon, when SM says Bella fell in love with him, he was completely human, and that's the Jacob Bella holds in her heart.

I'm also not sure what killing has to do with being more "human." I know you love to make that point about him, but I don't think it has anything to do with whether or not he's more "human."

Just some random musings.
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby vampirenerd » Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:00 pm

I'm going to answer your question but first I have to state that it really depends on what you mean by human. Human as in the physical aspect...or human as in humanity. If it's physical then Jacob definitely, he breathes, has blood pumping in his veins, and has the ability to age. I agree that he is also supposed to represent humanity, HOFJ you're right that the Jacob Bella falls in love with is the most human Jacob. He's everything she could have if she stayed human.

Well, the Cullens didn't have a choice in becoming vamps either. Carlisle made that choice for them...neither group had a choice in keeping their physical humanity.

If we're defining "human" as their humanity then I would have to say that the Cullens are just as human as Jacob. They choose to act as much like humans as possible, they value human life enough to not kill them, and they are capable of feeling human emotions and empathy towards humans. I do have to point out that while the Cullens aren't trying to get buddy buddy with the wolves they don't really ever express a desire to go kill them all. The wolves on the other hand don't think twice before wanting to kill the Cullens.
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:04 pm

But is it really an inhuman urge to want to protect yourself and your own?

I agree that if we're just judging by attitude, they're both equally human.
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby ringswraith » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:14 am

holdingoutforjacob wrote:But is it really an inhuman urge to want to protect yourself and your own?

I agree that if we're just judging by attitude, they're both equally human.


You're straddling a fine line between "protect" and "kill." That is to say, it's one thing to put yourself in front of someone being threatened; it's another thing altogether to "take out the threat" yourself.

And as vampirenerd mentioned, the word "humanity" here is being used in many meanings. I think the bulk of it is equating "humanity" with "morality."

My thoughts: Jacob is much more human, physically, than Edward- up until he goes through the physical changes signifying the upcoming first phase. Then he's just a little bit more human- again, physically- than Edward.
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby The girlie-wolf » Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:06 am

I don't think that killing means to protect... but the vamps are there enemy's, and of course they want to kill them. I don't say it's okay... just stating facts... and the times that they really were up for a battle were when Jacob thought that Bella changed and when Sam wanted to destroy Nessie, Bella and the Cullens because he thought that Nessie was dangrous...

And Jacob he is much more human physically, of course... his heart beats, there is blood in his veins, he can age and he don't have the urge to kill humans... and of course that the Cullens still have their humanity... and Jacob too... but if you put both of the facts togther- physically and the humanity, Jacob is more human...

And I don't think that most of the Cullens have respect for humans... well, of course they have, but not in the way that they bond with them...The only ones are Carlisle and Esme, in my opinion... and Edward after Bella... but Jasper, Emmet and Rosalie? they don't have any real respect for human lives... I don't think so at least...
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby vampirenerd » Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:16 am

Well, even the times that you pointed out still aren't good reasons for them to want to kill someone. Just because someone is your enemy and you think they are dangerous doesn't mean you should kill them. There are a lot of people I think are dangerous and would do anything to protect those I love from, but I wouldn't just decide to go kill them because I think they are dangerous. I agree with Rings there is a difference between protect and kill.

I also definitely have to disagree with you that the Cullens don't respect human life. In my opinion, refraining from what is their basic nature (to kill humans) shows a huge respect. If they didn't respect or value human life they would see nothing wrong with killing them. Just because they aren't really close to any human other than Bella doesn't really mean anything. It says countless times how much of a struggle it is to resist drinking from the humans they are basically surrounded by. In my opinion, if they didn't respect human life they wouldn't even try to resist that struggle.
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