Discrepancies

A discussion of the novella The Short Second Life of Bree Tanner

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Re: Discrepancies

Postby andypalmer » Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:34 pm

Knives wrote:And, Mr. Palmer, Greek Fire has several problems with practical application. Its throwers are large and clumsy, requiring ships or fortifications to mount them on. Not to mention that you'd need to pry the recipie from Araby's cold, dead hands - and then decode it from a cipher that includes a number Europe hadn't even conceived of at the time (zero). Best of luck. Hope the resistance dies well, since it'll be futile.

I guess you didn't get the memo about the hand-held "flame-throwers" or the fact that the Araby version was one of a handful of different, yet similarly effective formulas in use? Tsk, tsk, they give us Google, and we forget to use it :-)

Seriously though, Knives, the point is that any highly flammable substance would quickly get put to use against Vampires, whether Greek fire, alcohol, or even whale oil - the point being to get the flammable substance on the vampires so that they burn. C'mon, if mankind can resist Skynet and its mechanical army (Terminator reference), vampires aren't going to take us out. Humans are nothing if not ingenious, especially when their survival is on the line.
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Re: Discrepancies

Postby Openhome » Fri Jul 16, 2010 11:56 pm

Aside from the creation of a role playing game, or a wicked video game, the key point to the fact that vampire venom is SO flammable does create a small crack in their otherwise perfect armor. How much we humans could use it is up in the air. However, the point is, that SM's vampires AREN'T indestructible. They have an Achilles heel. For many readers, that fact was quite new. An interesting note about just how flammable they are: in Bree's story, the venom left on the clothes and in the carcasses of vampire victims made even human bodies burn easily.

Again, we need to put a little science aside because human bodies are actually almost impossible to burn completely up, but that does tell us just how incendiary Sparkly Spit is. The Pentagon would love to get a hold of it if they could.
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Re: Discrepancies

Postby AyaDiefair » Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:14 pm

Well, my $.02 is: Human survival does play a key role in figuring out how to fend off a threat, in this case Vampires. I'm sure through excessive thinking and random attempts of trying to kill a Vampire somewhere along the line they will find out they are flammable, be able to kill one, maybe even figure out how to get the venom out of the body and use it to their advantage. I'm sure it took a lot of people a couple times to figure out that shooting a zombie in the head kills them, whereas they would probably try every element (especially fire, maybe even acid or some sort of bio chemical thing) against the Vampires to figure out how to kill them. I'm more then sure they will figure it out quick their bullets are useless.

How they would 'farm' the venom from a dead vampire after they burned though is a whole nother question. I'm sure they would figure out how to catch one somehow and experiment. Something kind of like the movie I Am Legend but obviously will need more strategy and a heck of a lot more of...something to keep the Vampire trapped. *shrug*
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Re: Discrepancies

Postby Knives » Mon Jul 19, 2010 12:01 pm

December wrote:
Knives wrote:Hope the resistance dies well, since it'll be futile.

hahahahaha. Welcome back!

And btw, I'm still waiting for you to admire my skill in tracking down that "like diamond only harder" quotation for you.... (*grin*)


O Great and Noble December, you descend from the heavens as a frost-clad angel, fearlessly bringing forth wisdom from the foullest of the unholy pits. I can do nothing but bow in worship before a skill far greater than my own. I am unworthy!

I guess you didn't get the memo about the hand-held "flame-throwers" or the fact that the Araby version was one of a handful of different, yet similarly effective formulas in use? Tsk, tsk, they give us Google, and we forget to use it

Seriously though, Knives, the point is that any highly flammable substance would quickly get put to use against Vampires, whether Greek fire, alcohol, or even whale oil - the point being to get the flammable substance on the vampires so that they burn. C'mon, if mankind can resist Skynet and its mechanical army (Terminator reference), vampires aren't going to take us out. Humans are nothing if not ingenious, especially when their survival is on the line.


Europe didn't have Greek Fire, Mr. Palmer. They would have loved to have it, but they did not.

As for the whole "Skynet" reference, there's some major differences which folks have - repeatedly - failed to take into account when making these comparisons. For one, vampire reflexes vs. human reflexes = dead human. You need modern weaponry to even begin to make up for this. On the other hand, you can hit Skynet's machines. All you need is the right weapon. They don't dodge bullets, shrug off bombs, or possess super-senses. None of them are precogs. None of them are telepaths, weather-controllers, mind-benders, et cetera. Vampires, as Ms. Meyer has presented them, are several times more dangerous than Skynet, especially in numbers - and, getting better, they can just recruit the enemy in the field. One bite turns a foe into an ally.

Humanity's "indomitable spirit" assumes the ability to fight back. You tell me how medieval Europe would pull it off, my friend. Please do :p
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wait for it...
you are right.
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Re: Discrepancies

Postby Heart_in_Hand » Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:27 pm

I didn't read this whole thread, so I don't know if this has been mentioned yet. I was just rereading some old posts about Renesme and what her relationship with Alice would be. I said that Alice probably wouldn't spend much time with Nessie because she clouded her visions and gave Alice headaches. After just reading the Bree book (literally I just bought it yesterday and finished it last night) something really stuck out to me. In the SSLoBT Bree clearly states while sitting in the noisy basement of their house "it's a good thing I can't get headaches" or something like that. This seems like a pretty big discrepancy since Alice obviously got headaches in BD, and used the wolves "like Tylonol". But in Bree's book SM seems to suggest that vampires can't get them. Do you think maybe Bree just didn't get them and assumed it was because she was a vampire, or did Steph make a mistake here? :(
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Re: Discrepancies

Postby dandyvampgirl_13 » Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:19 am

Alice didn't get literal headaches, her brain was just tired. They can't physically be tired or in normal types of pain, but they sure can feel like it. All the stress of having to watch half a bazillion people's decisions would wear her out, so sitting by people she can't see would give her mind a welcome chance to recuperate.
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Re: Discrepancies

Postby ringswraith » Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:25 am

Also, to clarify, Renesmee doesn't actually give Alice headaches. She can't see anything about her future, just like with the shapeshifters. She got the headaches only while Bella was pregnant; Nessie's nature made it hard for Alice to get a bead on Bella's future, and since she was trying so hard at the time- "headaches."

Now, Nessie just plain makes things disappear if she becomes involved in what Alice is looking at- the way Bella used to disappear whenever she was with Jacob.
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Re: Discrepancies

Postby andypalmer » Fri Jul 23, 2010 1:30 pm

Knives wrote:Europe didn't have Greek Fire, Mr. Palmer. They would have loved to have it, but they did not.

While the Byzantines held (and eventually lost) the secret of Greek Fire, the use of flammable substances based on a number of sulphur-, petroleum- and bitumen-based mixtures have been in existence since the 9th century BC. The term, "Greek Fire" is used generally to cover all these primitive incendiary formulae (similar to how "Coke" in Georgia is used to describe all carbonated beverages, including Pepsi) as well as referring to the specific, more "infamous" substance that all but wiped out two Muslim fleets. The term itself is believed to have been invented after the Byzantines lost the formula.

Also, FYI, Constantinople (now called Istanbul), the capital of the Byzantine Empire is firmly in Europe, as is Greece, which was also part of the empire for much of the empire's existence.

Nonetheless, my point was the medieval, and even classical man had the ability and knowledge to use volatile flammable substances as weapons and if faced with a threat that could only be defeated with those means would have been more than capable of making waging war with the too-flammable vampires.
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Re: Discrepancies

Postby ringswraith » Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:26 pm

But they're still human, and thus too slow, too weak, have no enhanced senses, have no "super" powers, and are incredibly fragile compared to their opponents.

Myself, I don't believe just getting a flame on them equals a fiery death. You'd think they'd have a much healthier respect for flame and the like (or be incredibly threatened by someone like Benjamin) if that were the case. Also, all the burnings we've read about have involved vampires that were somehow incapacitated (usually by being torn into pieces), by other vampires or supernaturals.
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Re: Discrepancies

Postby December » Sun Jul 25, 2010 3:18 am

Friendly tone reminder from your Fearless and Frost-clad Mod: This was not actually meant to be a debate thread -- or a fencing match. So not to spoil your fun or anything, but...a less adversarial mode of conversation would be welcome. There are ways of getting your point across without taking a rhetorical bludgeon to the opposing view. Thanks!
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