Rosalie Hale #2

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Re: Rosalie Hale #2

Postby corona » Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:27 am

StellaBlueBella wrote:
corona wrote: Bella is also human, which Rosalie is jealous of, and Edward wants to keep her human; the implication is that Edward loves Bella more than Rosalie loves Emmett since she made Carlisle turn him into a vampire.


You know, I never thought about it like that before but, I think you are right on the money! It sorta explains why she is not only unwelcoming to Bella but also condisending to Edward about his falling in love with a human, belittling his choice/feelings.


I'd like to claim great insight on that particular point, but SM gives it to us on a silver platter in an interview:

http://www.twilightlexicon.com/?p=198

Rosalie also gives us a brief flash on that same point in SM's extra, Miscalculation:

http://www.stepheniemeyer.com/pdf/nm_extras_miscalculation.pdf

    But I couldn't finish the sentence, because I could see it in my head, a vision of my own. A vision of me. An unthinkable vision of my life if somehow Emmett ceased to be. I shuddered away from the horror of the idea.

    No--there was no comparison. Bella was just a human. Edward didn't want her to be immortal, so it wasn't the same. Edward couldn't feel the same!

EDIT: I think it may be easier to just copy and paste the relevant information from that Q&A link. In SM's own words:

Q. How could Rosalie underestimate Edward’s feelings for Bella so badly? What made her think that Edward would just go back to normal once Bella was dead? Especially since he had been already completely miserable when the two were just separated. Is she really that unobservant? Or is there more to it?

A. Rosalie is an egocentric person. One of the side effects of being born more beautiful than anyone else. Though she has her good qualities—loyalty, determination, self-discipline, and a very strong bond to her adoptive family—these qualities are often overshadowed by her self-absorption. She prefers to see Edward’s fascination with Bella as a strange quirk—and a transitory one at that. Because to Rosalie, of course, the main love story going on here is hers and Emmett’s. How could anyone else feel the same? Especially about some plain-jane human girl who Edward doesn’t even want to make immortal?

Ah, we’re getting deep into Rosalie’s well of denial now! See, Rosalie wanted Emmett, so she forced an unwilling Carlisle to change him. It turns into true love, and Rosalie has the staring role in the happily-ever-after-romance.

And then Edward falls for a human, and he insists on keeping her human. (Of course it’s different, since Emmett was bleeding to death, but, still) Rosalie can take this one of two ways. One: Edward doesn’t love this girl all that much. Two: he loves her more than Rosalie ever loved Emmett. Which way do you think Rosalie would prefer to look at it?
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Rosalie Hale #2

Postby babynessie_18 » Fri Feb 25, 2011 6:48 pm

corona wrote:
StellaBlueBella wrote:
corona wrote: Bella is also human, which Rosalie is jealous of, and Edward wants to keep her human; the implication is that Edward loves Bella more than Rosalie loves Emmett since she made Carlisle turn him into a vampire.


You know, I never thought about it like that before but, I think you are right on the money! It sorta explains why she is not only unwelcoming to Bella but also condisending to Edward about his falling in love with a human, belittling his choice/feelings.


I'd like to claim great insight on that particular point, but SM gives it to us on a silver platter in an interview:

http://www.twilightlexicon.com/?p=198

Rosalie also gives us a brief flash on that same point in SM's extra, Miscalculation:

http://www.stepheniemeyer.com/pdf/nm_extras_miscalculation.pdf

    But I couldn't finish the sentence, because I could see it in my head, a vision of my own. A vision of me. An unthinkable vision of my life if somehow Emmett ceased to be. I shuddered away from the horror of the idea.

    No--there was no comparison. Bella was just a human. Edward didn't want her to be immortal, so it wasn't the same. Edward couldn't feel the same!

EDIT: I think it may be easier to just copy and paste the relevant information from that Q&A link. In SM's own words:

Q. How could Rosalie underestimate Edward’s feelings for Bella so badly? What made her think that Edward would just go back to normal once Bella was dead? Especially since he had been already completely miserable when the two were just separated. Is she really that unobservant? Or is there more to it?

A. Rosalie is an egocentric person. One of the side effects of being born more beautiful than anyone else. Though she has her good qualities—loyalty, determination, self-discipline, and a very strong bond to her adoptive family—these qualities are often overshadowed by her self-absorption. She prefers to see Edward’s fascination with Bella as a strange quirk—and a transitory one at that. Because to Rosalie, of course, the main love story going on here is hers and Emmett’s. How could anyone else feel the same? Especially about some plain-jane human girl who Edward doesn’t even want to make immortal?

Ah, we’re getting deep into Rosalie’s well of denial now! See, Rosalie wanted Emmett, so she forced an unwilling Carlisle to change him. It turns into true love, and Rosalie has the staring role in the happily-ever-after-romance.

And then Edward falls for a human, and he insists on keeping her human. (Of course it’s different, since Emmett was bleeding to death, but, still) Rosalie can take this one of two ways. One: Edward doesn’t love this girl all that much. Two: he loves her more than Rosalie ever loved Emmett. Which way do you think Rosalie would prefer to look at it?


:clap: Thank you so much for this, It made me understood a lot! I thought Rosalie was just being mean.. What did Emmett do to her after that? I would love to picture Emmett scolding Rose for what she did..
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Re: Rosalie Hale #2

Postby The Female Jacob » Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:21 am

So, (first of all, hello for the first time everyone!) I just have to go into this because it doesn't matter how many different Twilighters I come into this discussion with, we all have different feelings on the issue and I always love hearing what others have been thinking while reading the series on this subject. It's a matter of personal interest and opinion, and I'm not jumping anyone's throat by far, I'm just curious what you all thought on this.

In Breaking Dawn, it seems to me as soon as Rosalie realizes the potential possibility of Bella really having a baby, something that Rose has wanted for years with all your icey heart (personal issue with Rose, can you tell? haha) - it seems to me that she is most certainly using Bella to get what she wants. The baby she's dreamed of since she was human. In this horrible time in the book, I truly always felt, and still do, that she cared nothing for Bella but that she was a gateway to give Rose what she always wanted. As soon as our precious Bella is dying upstairs, Rose is with the baby. Yes, good to get the child away just in case, but that wasn't Rose's intention I believe. I feel that really, she couldn't care less for her brother's potential loss of the most important thing in her life, or that someone that was part of her family was gone. She only cared about that baby, and for all the wrong reasons. She was selfish and uncaring at what it meant to have that child in her arms. I feel like Rosalie's mind is so small and taken up with nothing but herself that she hasn't the spare room to truly care about others like she should or what sacrifice means from someone else. It was like she played Bella, being sweet and taking care of her, 'protecting' her. When really, she was just ensuring her cargo was safe and sound to play with later. Bella was a messenger, that was it. And Rose would have done anything to keep that baby no matter what it came to be in the end. Do you agree? I've had some people claim that she was truly helping all along and others claim that she'd planned on killing Bella if she survived. Others hold Rosalie to a high pedastal where it doesn't matter what she does, she's perfection. What do you think?
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Re: Rosalie Hale #2

Postby corona » Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:43 pm

The Female Jacob,

I think Rosalie was emotionally short-circuited, unable to progress beyond her self-absorption and unable to get past her regrets over losing her humanity and the ability to be a mother. I think she was SM's example of what happens when you make that change and the person is not ready. She is incapable of growth, so she is stuck in that self-absorbed mode for eternity. I'm sure that Emmett made things better; she likely was horrible to be around before he came along.

I don't think that Rosalie wanted Bella to die, but she simply couldn't avoid thinking about the possibilities of assuming the mother role if she did, and taking on that role was one of her heart's greatest desires.

Here is what I think was going on, and it's my opinon only:

a) Rosalie respects Bella's choice. In that regard, she does begin to make a connection with Bella. I think a real connection is going to take a while, but the beginning is there, even if the emotional bonding hasn't happened yet. Her sweet attitude to Bella is mostly phony, that just isn't Rosalie, but it isn't completely false either.

[I don't think Rosalie respects Bella's ability and freedom to make a choice, I think Rosalie respects the specific choice that Bella makes, period. If Bella had decided to abort, Rosalie would have loathed her for an eternity. Rosalie does not go to other people, other people come to her under her rules; empathy isn't her strong suit.]

b) Rosalie would prefer for Bella to live. However, I think she has also considered that Bella dying will be bad, but not all bad. After all, Rosalie's happy ending is a human life that ends under a gravestone. I think she would prefer to avoid the tragedy, but she knows her role in Renesmee's life will be greater with Bella out of the picture. Bad, but not all bad. If a certain idea is appealing to Rose, she fixates on it without evaluating the consequences. Read her outtake from New Moon.

c) Rosalie is focused on the child. She knows Bella is stubborn and determined, and that there is an excellent chance that the child will come to full-term. Whatever comes after that, saving Bella's life, is up to Edward and Carlisle. I don't think Rosalie considers Bella's life as her responsibility at all, that is mostly Edward's.

d) Rosalie sees Edward as the greatest threat to her personal fulfillment. I think that Rosalie always resented Edward for bringing Bella and the danger that surrounds her into the lives of the Cullens, and she also particularly resented him for being the one most intimately aware of her unattractive selfish side (something that is explored in Midnight Sun). She resented Bella a lot for grabbing the spotlight and her constant conflict with every one of her regrets, but during the pregnancy she took every bit of that and piled it in on top of Edward.

[In my opinion, this is the worst part of Rosalie, it is very ugly. Her callous disregard for her own brother is shocking.]

AFTER the birth, there are indications that Rosalie's relationship with Bella will improve, and that they will likely bond as as sisters, but that has to be explored in future stories.

She apparently made peace with Edward afterwards. Their conversation must have been very interesting. I seriously doubt she resents Bella and her exclusive role as the mother, or else Edward wouldn't want anything to do with her anymore. And Edward can't deny that having Nessie turned out for the best.

I think Nessie's existence in her life might just be the one thing that can move her out of her self-absorption...somewhat. Maybe. Possibly.

As for what SM thought, I think she had a good deal of sympathy for Rose, but she ultimately humiliates her in the delivery room. Rosalie is incapable of delivering the child and would likely have feasted on Bella if Jacob hadn't kicked her out of the room. This is the woman who prides herself on her self-control. She knows very well that Edward feels the pull immeasurably stronger than she does, yet it is Edward that ultimately must administer the morphine, deliver the child, resist the bloodlust while injecting the venom, and then keep her heart beating. Rosalie was useless when the ultimate test came, and she knew it, and she likely (my opinion) had a great deal more respect for Edward afterwards.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Rosalie Hale #2

Postby Ronnijuice » Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:59 pm

Wow, it's really great reading all your posts. You are all so caring about the story!
I haven't read all books yet, but seen all movies. I'm a bit confunded by Rosalies transformation...

It seems to me that Carlisle is a very caring and careful person. Finding an abused, dying woman on the sidewalk is ofcourse an horrendous experience, but to me it seems a little bit random to turn her into a vampire?
I mean, in the tiny bit of time he has to decide what to do with her, did he really stop to think "Wow, she is so beautiful, she would be great for Edward"? And if so, is that reason enough to turn her when he knows the horrors and agony of being a vampire?
And since she is so miserable about being a vampire, wouldn't Carlisle be more remorseful?

what's your take on this? Did he have reasons to turn her that are clear if you read more than I have?
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Re: Rosalie Hale #2

Postby corona » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:53 am

Ronnijuice, welcome to the Lex forum.

Those are good questions. There is no definite answer, but I can tell you what my opinion is.

Carlisle was rash. EC shows that, with Edward remonstrating him for changing Rosalie. Edward is the hard-nosed one there, Carlisle is the one saying it was too horrific, too much waste. A bit of a role reversal, but then the world of murder, brutality, and depravity is Edward's shop, not Carlisle's. Edward has seen this hundreds of times, and he prevented it some of the time and sometimes he was too late. Carlisle, even though a centuries old vampire, is more of a go-to-work, come-home-to-family kind of guy.

So, I'm going to guess that Carlisle truly was shocked at the scene. Rosalie was the victim of a brutal gang rape, likely beaten to the point of fatal internal bleeding.

Carlisle is someone who believes in Providence. Think of the circumstances of Edward and Esme.

Carlisle is a doctor, perhaps the best doctor in the world, and he couldn't save her.

Last, I don't think you can dismiss Rosalie's beauty. She was a superb physical specimen. That has an effect on both humans and vampires.

Carlisle also knew who she was. Rosalie was a minor local social celebrity due to her engagement with Royce, and her wedding was only one week off.

Put it all together. Horrific scene, horrific circumstances, someone who believes in God and signs, and the enormous frustration of Rosalie being beyond his medical skills to save.

But...he can save her, can't he? Edward's mother knew that. Carlisle has been batting a 1000, everything seems to work out. If the thought of a companion for Edward entered his mind, it wouldn't be that far-fetched. I think he was rattled. Perhaps he saved her due to the horror of the brutality and the circumstances of the betrayal. Perhaps that alone was enough. Maybe he was trying to think of some good reason to save her, and the thought of Edward needing a companion was sufficient for him to rationalize what he knew was going to be a rash act.

That's my opinion. I think taking Rosalie's beauty completely out of the equation doesn't quite make sense, because then it truly would be a random act where the vampire candidate just happened to be beautiful woman. What are the odds, right? On the other hand, to suggest that Carlisle was "procuring" a beauty for Edward, that just so happened to be the victim of a gang rape, is disturbing. However, to call it as being one or the other, with one cancelling out the other, I don't think is quite right. Neither makes complete sense. I think at the end Carlisle was looking for any reason to save her, and he knew saving this one in particular was completely irrational, but he was looking for an excuse, any excuse, to act.

Things didn't work out so well, though, and Carlisle never did it again until Rosalie brought him Emmett.

IMO, what that whole episode illustrates more than anything else is that that scene of Rosalie must have been really bad. He wanted to save her life, that came first. When it became apparent the only way to keep her alive was to change her, he may have started grasping at straws looking for any reason.

P.S. I'm going to elaborate on those "horrific circumstances", because I haven't ever really talked about Royce. SM only gives us an off-hand comment from Royce about needing to learn more patience.

What seems logical to me is that something occurred that never made it into the canon. Royce had made advances on Rosalie recently, within one or two weeks prior to that night, and Rosalie, the commoner, had rebuffed him. I don't know if Royce had already decided to dump Rosalie or if he was angered when she refused him. I tend to think the latter. Who was she, after all? This is someone who still maintains her friendships with people of lower stations, who even visited with one of them the night of the attack. Just who did Rosalie think she was, telling the King "no"?

It's just a theory of mine, I can't prove it.

So Royce had this idea likely before he started getting drunk. He even may have been goaded into it when he mentioned it to his friends, they all seemed to know what was going to happen. What better way to teach this uppity girl who was who? Royce takes the only thing he cares about, and then passes her off to his friends because she means nothing to him. With everyone in on the act they can all provide alibis for each other if questions ever arise, and with everyone backing up each other that particular line of investigation would go nowhere.

Yeah, I think Carlisle had an inkling of that when he found Rosalie, he knew who she was and who Royce was. A horrific injustice had been committed, and Royce and friends were bold about it and had no worries of it being discovered. Rosalie was middle-class trash and they were kings.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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