Contradictions in the Guide

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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby alphanubilus » Sat Apr 16, 2011 10:28 pm

I noticed a few more....
Time Line issue on page 405...
Meyer writes when speaking of the following time line in regards to the vampires and werewolves spans hundreds of thousands of years, yet the earliest recorded time (of which concerns the Volturi) is 1400-1200 B.C. From 1400 B.C. to the present would span only a mere 4000 years. While it is several thousand years, her time line is nowhere near several hundred thousand years...

Imprinting - pg 310 and Sam/Emily pg 340 361

While there isn't a discrepency, per say, in the Guide itself. There is an imprinting discrepency in regards to what the books tell us of imprinting versus the Guide. In the books, starting in Eclipse and throughout Breaking Dawn, we are told that when a werewolf imprints the imprinter and imprintee are both affected. The one can't live without the other. We see this with Jared and Kim, we see this with Claire and Quil... We see this especially with Jacob and Renesme. While the werewolf loses the entire free will to their imprintee, their imprintee becomes totally devoted to the said werewolf. In the movie version of Eclipse, Jacob tells Bella that if he had imprinted on "her" she would know it. As the books imply, if Jacob were to imprint on Bella, her feelings for Edward would change, because Jacob would be her soul mate.

The imprinting discrepency comes in the form of Emily... When Sam imprinted on Emily, she too should have reacted in the same way as Kim, Rachel, Claire, and Renesme did... Emily didn't though. She was upset about it. She even tried to use and abuse the power of the imprint to force Sam to love Leah. Even though Emily owned Sam's free will, according to the section on Imprinting on pg 310. He was able to reject her request... This of course is what leads up to the fight, as she severely mistreats him, and he thus accidentally phases...striking her. After the horror, Sam debates making Emily command him to kill himself... While things work out... Emily shouldn't have been able to refuse him from the start. Secondly if he had to obey her every request, he should have tried to make things right with Leah... it wouldn't have worked out... be remember, he has no free will. If Emily had the power to command him to commit suicide, and he'd have no choice but to do it, then he should have obeyed her, when she commanded him to go back to Leah.

Again Emily, being attached to Sam by a magic wolfy bond, should have felt the imprint just like all the other characters who were imprinted on, yet it isn't until much later that she finally accepts what has happened... Just my personal findings.


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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby Jeakat » Sat Apr 16, 2011 10:56 pm

In the books, starting in Eclipse and throughout Breaking Dawn, we are told that when a werewolf imprints the imprinter and imprintee are both affected.


In Eclipse, when Bella asks Jacob if the imprintee gets a choice, Jacob says that they do but that it's hard to resist that 'level of devotion'. I don't remember it being said that the imprint would effect both of them. Also, in the film, Jacob says to Bella that she would know if he'd imprinted on her, not because she would feel it, but because he would've told her. I think in the book he explains it better when he said that he'd have been able to tell her about the wolf secret as the imprints are allowed to know.

I think the imprints do feel a kind of draw to their wolf, much like a normal human would feel something towards a person they were interested in, but I really don't think they actually feel anything out of the ordinary. I think they develop a closer bond just by spending time with each other (certainly from the imprintee's point of view), which Sam and Emily hadn't really done until after the accident.

I think Jacob and Nessie have a special relationship because he's able to be with her most of the time. They have a lot of time to build up their relationship, and also, Nessie is part vampire and there's the vampire mating bond to consider. Maybe a part of her vampire nature recognises Jacob as her future mate (not in a sexual way as she's a child. Much the imprint itself). I don't know, just a theory and I'm getting all ahead of myself!
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby vermishelle » Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:32 am

Jeakat wrote:I've found a couple, but I can only remember one.
But, in Twilight, when Bella asks Jacob about Sam, Jacob tells her that he's twenty.

Jeakat, I think Jacob said Sam was 19 :) .

I noticed some inconsistencies too:

1. According to Twilight (Ch.1), Charlie and Renee got married in Vegas, while according to the Guide they did it in Port-Angeles.

2. Tanya, Kate and Irina could not be born in Slovakia :? , because it didn’t exist in the 1000s. Slovakia was created only at the end of the 20th century. In the 11th century there were only different Slavic tribes, which didn’t yet form the Slavic nations and states as we know them.

3. The timeline for Jasper-Peter-Charlotte is a bit off in the Guide. We know from “Eclipse” that Peter spent 3 years after his transformation with Jasper and Maria, and he fell in love with the newborn Charlotte when he was probably 2 years old. After Charlotte turned one year old, they ran away. Next, Peter came back for Jasper 5 years later, and only then Jasper left Maria. That makes 8 years from Peter’s transformation to Jasper’s escape from Maria.

Now look what we have in the Guide: Peter was transformed into a vampire in 1920s :? , while Charlotte was changed in 1938, which means Peter had been a vampire for 18 years (not 2-3, like in “Eclipse”) before they met. As for Jasper, the timeline at the end of the Guide states that he left Maria in 1938, the same year that Charlotte became a vampire, which contradicts the book, where he left 5-6 years after she was transformed.

If the author wanted for Jasper to leave Maria in 1938, then, to fit the information from “Eclipse”, the timeline should have been as follows: Peter is transformed in 1930 (not 1920) – Charlotte is transformed in 1932 (not 1938) – they run away in 1933 – Peter comes back for Jasper in 1938 and Jasper leaves with him.
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby alphanubilus » Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:14 am

Jeakat wrote:
In the books, starting in Eclipse and throughout Breaking Dawn, we are told that when a werewolf imprints the imprinter and imprintee are both affected.


In Eclipse, when Bella asks Jacob if the imprintee gets a choice, Jacob says that they do but that it's hard to resist that 'level of devotion'. I don't remember it being said that the imprint would effect both of them. Also, in the film, Jacob says to Bella that she would know if he'd imprinted on her, not because she would feel it, but because he would've told her. I think in the book he explains it better when he said that he'd have been able to tell her about the wolf secret as the imprints are allowed to know.

I think the imprints do feel a kind of draw to their wolf, much like a normal human would feel something towards a person they were interested in, but I really don't think they actually feel anything out of the ordinary. I think they develop a closer bond just by spending time with each other (certainly from the imprintee's point of view), which Sam and Emily hadn't really done until after the accident.

I think Jacob and Nessie have a special relationship because he's able to be with her most of the time. They have a lot of time to build up their relationship, and also, Nessie is part vampire and there's the vampire mating bond to consider. Maybe a part of her vampire nature recognises Jacob as her future mate (not in a sexual way as she's a child. Much the imprint itself). I don't know, just a theory and I'm getting all ahead of myself!


That does make since... but I still feel that if either theory for the reason imprinting happens in the first place, such as to create a stronger wolf, or to get a partner that will best allow the werewolf to pass the wolf gene, then the imprint would have to guarantee that the imprintee would accept their wolfy mate. If that isn't the case, then nothing could stop an imprintee from completely rejecting the imprinter, no matter how much devotion. This seems to be the case with Emily and Sam, and it was a situation that nearly destroyed both of them. Imprintee HAS to be feel something beyond the ordinary, or else a lot of unpleasant things could happen to the wolves that have imprinted... Look at Claire... What is she told Quil that she likes him as a wolf and orders him to stay a wolf. Quil, as he has no free will of his own, would do this without question to please Claire... As she is a child, she doesn't know the consequences of her actions. If she didn't order him to change back, he might as well be stuck like that the rest of his life... Then again, the imprintee could purposely do that, to prevent the said wolf, from starting anything more than a platonic relationship. For example... Let's say Jacob did imprint of Bella. Bella doesn't feel anything other than annoyance that he won't leave her and Edward alone. Jacob tries and tries to explain that he can't be away from her due to imprinting, so she order's him to turn into a wolf and stay that way. (I don't think Bella would have ever done that, but then again... if punching him doesn't work....) :D So I wager, if imprinting is designed to benefit the werewolf, the connection they make has to be a sure thing...so the imprintee has to be affected...

If that isn't the case... Then I feel really sorry for the poor will-less werewolves.... :(
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby Jeakat » Sun Apr 17, 2011 8:42 pm

alphanubilus wrote:
Jeakat wrote:
In the books, starting in Eclipse and throughout Breaking Dawn, we are told that when a werewolf imprints the imprinter and imprintee are both affected.


In Eclipse, when Bella asks Jacob if the imprintee gets a choice, Jacob says that they do but that it's hard to resist that 'level of devotion'. I don't remember it being said that the imprint would effect both of them. Also, in the film, Jacob says to Bella that she would know if he'd imprinted on her, not because she would feel it, but because he would've told her. I think in the book he explains it better when he said that he'd have been able to tell her about the wolf secret as the imprints are allowed to know.

I think the imprints do feel a kind of draw to their wolf, much like a normal human would feel something towards a person they were interested in, but I really don't think they actually feel anything out of the ordinary. I think they develop a closer bond just by spending time with each other (certainly from the imprintee's point of view), which Sam and Emily hadn't really done until after the accident.

I think Jacob and Nessie have a special relationship because he's able to be with her most of the time. They have a lot of time to build up their relationship, and also, Nessie is part vampire and there's the vampire mating bond to consider. Maybe a part of her vampire nature recognises Jacob as her future mate (not in a sexual way as she's a child. Much the imprint itself). I don't know, just a theory and I'm getting all ahead of myself!


That does make since... but I still feel that if either theory for the reason imprinting happens in the first place, such as to create a stronger wolf, or to get a partner that will best allow the werewolf to pass the wolf gene, then the imprint would have to guarantee that the imprintee would accept their wolfy mate. If that isn't the case, then nothing could stop an imprintee from completely rejecting the imprinter, no matter how much devotion. This seems to be the case with Emily and Sam, and it was a situation that nearly destroyed both of them. Imprintee HAS to be feel something beyond the ordinary, or else a lot of unpleasant things could happen to the wolves that have imprinted... Look at Claire... What is she told Quil that she likes him as a wolf and orders him to stay a wolf. Quil, as he has no free will of his own, would do this without question to please Claire... As she is a child, she doesn't know the consequences of her actions. If she didn't order him to change back, he might as well be stuck like that the rest of his life... Then again, the imprintee could purposely do that, to prevent the said wolf, from starting anything more than a platonic relationship. For example... Let's say Jacob did imprint of Bella. Bella doesn't feel anything other than annoyance that he won't leave her and Edward alone. Jacob tries and tries to explain that he can't be away from her due to imprinting, so she order's him to turn into a wolf and stay that way. (I don't think Bella would have ever done that, but then again... if punching him doesn't work....) :D So I wager, if imprinting is designed to benefit the werewolf, the connection they make has to be a sure thing...so the imprintee has to be affected...

If that isn't the case... Then I feel really sorry for the poor will-less werewolves.... :(


I definitely agree that imprinting has to be more than just genetics (either to create stronger wolves or carry on the wolf gene). It seems to be that each imprintee is a perfect match in personality for their wolf. If they had nothing in common/ weren't compatible on a personal level with their imprint counterpart, then, even with the 'magic' of imprint bonding, they wouldn't be happy. (Well, maybe the wolf would still be, but the human wouldn't). I find it hard to accept that imprinting finds not only your best match on a personal level, but also on a genetic one. So I think it's more personal. That's why I think all the couples are so happy together, not particularly because the female can actually feel it. I think she might later on when they're together, but not at the moment it happens.

I had always hoped that the wolves had an element of free-will left when they imprinted, but then in the guide it says that they pretty much lose their free-will and put their imprint above absolutely everything else. I hate that. I know from reading SM's interview with Shannon Hale in the guide that my view of love is completely different to hers. To me, you love someone the moment you think about their needs instead of your own. Yet I think you still have to keep an element of your needs in mind too. It's not healthy to constantly put the other persons needs above your own, not when it's hurting you. I think that's why love can hurt so much. If only one person feels that way then there's an inbalance, with the other person just thinking about themselves. Like with your example abotu Quil. Claire could theoretically order him to stay a wolf and he would have to obey. Even if she didn't mean it maliciously, Quil will still suffer because of it. To me, that's not love. Which is a shame, because I really hoped the guide would confirm my previous views.
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby suzzeeQ » Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:34 pm

In an interview with Time magazine http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1734838,00.html she said this:

We have free will, which is a huge gift from God



I think it's a little funny that she's denying the wolves what she considers a huge gift from God and touting it as a happy ending.

Last edited by suzzeeQ on Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby Jeakat » Sun Apr 17, 2011 10:04 pm

suzzeeQ wrote:In an interview with Time magazine http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1734838,00.html she said this:

We have free will, which is a huge gift from God



I think it's a little funny that she's denying the wolves what she considers a huge gift from God.



Ooooh interesting point! I love it, it's so true. I just can't understand how anyone can view love and loss of free-will as one in the same. I'd do (almost) anything for my partner. I'd go to the ends of the earth for him, but that's my choice. If he demanded that I go to the ends of the earth for him? Well, that would be a different case entirely.

So to me now imprinting cannot equal love at all. Which is good for any Jacob haters out there, he literally is going to be Nessie's little lap dog!

The mention of Jacob has just reminded me of another contradiction in the guide. In Sam's bio it says that his feelings were still exactly the same for Leah after he imprinted. He loved Emily more and knew he had to be with her, but his feelings towards Leah remained unchanged. But Jacob says to Bella that he loves her as a friend after he imprints on Nessie and so his feelings must have changed. There's three possibilities for this. Either Jacob was lying and he's still in love with Bella, but we can scrap that one as Edward was standing right there and would've known he was lying (and Edward wouldn't have kept that lie to himself). Two, the guide is contradicting itself. Or three, my theory about Jacob is correct. I've always felt that Jacob wasn't as in love with Bella as he thought he was. He certainly liked her and I think he may have been falling in love with her by the end of NM. When Bella keeps contacting him, at first he's not interested. Then he changes his mind and makes it his mission to try and save her. I've always viewed Jacob as someone who's determined, he sets his sights on a goal he really believes in and when he does he sees it through to the end. When used the right way, that can be a pretty admirable trait, but (even though he genuinely thought he was saving Bella, even though we know different) Jacob uses it the wrong way in Eclipse and does some pretty awful things. He deliberately plays on his feelings for Bella to try and get her to see things his way. It's the only way he knows that he stands a chance of winning (of course, we know he won't!). But I think somewhere along the line he manages to convince himself that his feelings for Bella are stronger than they are. It's like when someone tell the same lie so often they actually start believeing it themselves. So when Jacob imprinted, it wasn't that his feelings changed and he loved Bella like a friend, he'd always loved her like a friend.
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby smitten_by_twilight » Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:19 am

Quotes aren't working for me tonight so I won't try.

On the imprinting/imprintee/free will thing ...

Edward also comments on this to Bella in Eclipse, something along the lines of Emily's Sam, not Sam's Emily, because Sam has no free will in the matter. Implying that Sam cannot reject Emily, but Emily could reject Sam, which is also the implication when (in the Guide) Sam goes to Emily and begs her to tell him to kill himself. Jeakat, I agree with you about the love and free will issue, so that the imprintee are in love but that the werewolves really aren't ... and I am deeply disturbed by this. I'm gonna have to mull this one over.

On the Jacob-Bella-Edward triangle ...

I tend to think that Jacob was in love with Bella, although not as much as he thought he was - he was, what, 15 when they met? And still 16 when Renesmee was born? Or just barely 17. Maybe Edward would have let the lie slide, feeling it would be better for everyone - he's done that before. Or possibly the Guide is contradicting itself. Another point - Bella's feelings towards Jacob have not been magically changed. She was in love and she knew it - just not as much as she was in love with Edward. While she managed to FINALLY let Jacob down properly, and without looking back much, that doesn't mean that she no longer loves him. This might have increased Edward's desire to let the lie slide, to move them all past the discomfort a little quicker.
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby Jeakat » Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:53 pm

smitten_by_twilight wrote:Quotes aren't working for me tonight so I won't try.

On the imprinting/imprintee/free will thing ...

Edward also comments on this to Bella in Eclipse, something along the lines of Emily's Sam, not Sam's Emily, because Sam has no free will in the matter. Implying that Sam cannot reject Emily, but Emily could reject Sam, which is also the implication when (in the Guide) Sam goes to Emily and begs her to tell him to kill himself. Jeakat, I agree with you about the love and free will issue, so that the imprintee are in love but that the werewolves really aren't ... and I am deeply disturbed by this. I'm gonna have to mull this one over.

On the Jacob-Bella-Edward triangle ...

I tend to think that Jacob was in love with Bella, although not as much as he thought he was - he was, what, 15 when they met? And still 16 when Renesmee was born? Or just barely 17. Maybe Edward would have let the lie slide, feeling it would be better for everyone - he's done that before. Or possibly the Guide is contradicting itself. Another point - Bella's feelings towards Jacob have not been magically changed. She was in love and she knew it - just not as much as she was in love with Edward. While she managed to FINALLY let Jacob down properly, and without looking back much, that doesn't mean that she no longer loves him. This might have increased Edward's desire to let the lie slide, to move them all past the discomfort a little quicker.


That's true, I hadn't thought of it that way. Well, I knew about Bella's feelings for Jacob, but not that it may have been a motive for Edward to let it slide.

Spotted another contradiction, though I think this one might just be an issue of phrasing. Here's a quote from page 303 of the guide:

The direct descendants of Taha Aki are born with twenty-four chromosomal pairs rather than the twenty-three pairs of a normal human. It was once believed that the extra chromosome could be passed down only to male descendants, but that has been proven false; in Eclipse we saw the first female tribe member transform.


Firstly, it's not an extra chromosome as it says in the second sentence; it's an extra pair.

But, more importantly, there is no way that they could've believed that it was only passed down to males. What it should've said was that although the females also inherited the extra pair, it was believed that they couldn't transform. By simply looking at the family trees, there is no way that the Quileute's could've believed that females didn't carry the extra pair. If that was the case then they wouldn't be able to pass the wolf gene onto their decendants. Take Harry Clearwater for example. It states in his bio that he knew he'd have to deal with Seth phasing into a wolf, but never expected Leah to aswell. Well, as women can't pass on the gene (because they don't have it) then we can rule Sue out of the equation for passing the genes on to her children. Harry inherited his wolf gene from Amelia Ateara, a woman. If, before Leah, they believed all the women still had 23 pairs of chomosomes, then there was no way that Harry would've worried about Seth becoming a wolf because he would've believed it was impossible. Of course, they were wrong anyway, because of Leah, but still! :banghead: :D
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby suzzeeQ » Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:03 pm

I think it's interesting that ALL of those who carry the gene have 24 pairs of chromosomes. What if one of them had their DNA tested or had gotten arrested and their DNA was entered into a database and someone noticed the 24 chromosomes? Don't you think someone would be suspicious?
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