Contradictions in the Guide

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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby alphanubilus » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:36 pm

suzzeeQ wrote:I think it's interesting that ALL of those who carry the gene have 24 pairs of chromosomes. What if one of them had their DNA tested or had gotten arrested and their DNA was entered into a database and someone noticed the 24 chromosomes? Don't you think someone would be suspicious?

In the Twilight Saga, the Quiluete have their own medical doctors, so that they wouldn't have to run that risk. Granted, if a person has turned werewolf, I can't see many circumstances, other than a massive vampire attack, as was in Eclipse, that would put a werewolf into a position to get wounded severe enough to seek out a doctor.

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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby suzzeeQ » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:44 pm

The Quileutes stopped going to Forks Hospital when the Cullens arrived and Carlisle was hired, so they do go to the hospital. They would especially go if they needed treatment that the medical center couldn't provide. Even if the Quileutes who carry the gene don't phase they still have the extra pair. For example, if Sam's dad went to jail and his DNA was entered into a database, it would show he has 24 pairs of chromosomes.
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby skatepixie » Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:42 am

Jazz Girl wrote:2) Vampires listed with "no quantifiable supernatural power"; Specifically, I look at Carlisle. But, there is also an argument for Laurent and Siobhan as well. Listed specifically in the section on supernatural powers, it gives the example of, "a human with a deep value for human life becoming a vampire with the strentgh to avoid human blood." I've made the argument before that I thought there was at least some underlying basis for Carlisle's ability not only to resist, but essentially to surround himself with human blood, be in direct contact with it, and never be tempted (yes, I know he feels the temptation, the burn, but the point is there). Yet, he is listed as having no supernatural power. In previous discussions on the Carlisle thread, it has been said that this being a supernatural power would somehow lesson his sacrifice or cheapen it in some way. I disagree whole-heartedly with that. Having so much compassion that it follows you through the transformation process and is enhanced into a vampiric strength is, I think a remarkable thing.
But also, there are others. Laurent, it is said in his bio, has an innate ability, even as a human, to identify and seek out the most powerful in a room, and to ingratiate himself to them. Might this not be a supernatural gift similar to Eleazar's or Heidi's or even Marcus'?


I think the idea of "a human with a deep value for human life becoming a vampire with the strentgh to avoid human blood" having a supernatural gift is an example, and may not refer to Carlisle directly. Personally, I don't think he has a supernatural ability. Also, I think his lack of supernatural power combined with his force of will is more admirable than just being able to avoid the temptation because of a supernatural gift. The fact that he does have to fight such a huge drive for human blood shows how very much he does care.
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby corona » Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:56 am

Backing up a bit to the imprinting issue:

About the only new official information from the guide is that imprinting has been confirmed to always occur between people of the opposite sex. This is a pretty strong indicator that the purpose is either breeding or romance. Outside of that, the wolf pack in the Twilight world will likely continue to debate what the true nature of imprinting in.

I think SM pretty well hands out the unofficial explanation in the interview, though, when she talks about Midsummer’s Night Dream and magic. Unofficially, imprinting is a way to bop the imprinter over the head with the 2x4 of love. That dovetails well with what is officially known, so that genetics are out the window and soul-mate romance is in; at least that is the way I read it.

I think the most interesting info provided by the Guide is the difference between the way that Sam handled it and the way Jacob handled it. Jacob was the only first-hand POV we ever had up until now. And now we have Sam’s imprinting, and their reactions were definitely different; lot’s of area for discussion there. That was a great point to bring up about Sam still caring for Leah even after imprinting. Also, Sam’s control seems a good deal stronger than Jacob’s, at least as far as the emotional side. Jacob reveals his imprinting to Bella by going into a blissed-out zone while they are both holding Renesmee, and I had always wondered whether the effects of the imprinting alone were so strong that it could do that. Sam and Emily’s story indicate that that does not necessarily happen; at no point is Sam so far into the “imprinting zone” that he cannot help but tune everyone else out. Different circumstances, though, so that is even more food for discussion.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby suzzeeQ » Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:00 pm

I definitely think the imprint between Jacob and Renameme is different than the imprint between the rest of the wolves and their human imprints.
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby Jazz Girl » Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:52 pm

skatepixie wrote:
Jazz Girl wrote:2) Vampires listed with "no quantifiable supernatural power"; Specifically, I look at Carlisle. But, there is also an argument for Laurent and Siobhan as well. Listed specifically in the section on supernatural powers, it gives the example of, "a human with a deep value for human life becoming a vampire with the strentgh to avoid human blood." I've made the argument before that I thought there was at least some underlying basis for Carlisle's ability not only to resist, but essentially to surround himself with human blood, be in direct contact with it, and never be tempted (yes, I know he feels the temptation, the burn, but the point is there). Yet, he is listed as having no supernatural power. In previous discussions on the Carlisle thread, it has been said that this being a supernatural power would somehow lesson his sacrifice or cheapen it in some way. I disagree whole-heartedly with that. Having so much compassion that it follows you through the transformation process and is enhanced into a vampiric strength is, I think a remarkable thing.
But also, there are others. Laurent, it is said in his bio, has an innate ability, even as a human, to identify and seek out the most powerful in a room, and to ingratiate himself to them. Might this not be a supernatural gift similar to Eleazar's or Heidi's or even Marcus'?


I think the idea of "a human with a deep value for human life becoming a vampire with the strentgh to avoid human blood" having a supernatural gift is an example, and may not refer to Carlisle directly. Personally, I don't think he has a supernatural ability. Also, I think his lack of supernatural power combined with his force of will is more admirable than just being able to avoid the temptation because of a supernatural gift. The fact that he does have to fight such a huge drive for human blood shows how very much he does care.


This issue has been put up for debate before. I don't think if it were a supernatural power, it would make his struggle any less admirable. It doesn't say that he doesn't struggle or that it is easy for him. The example indicates that it gives them the strength. What monumental strength that must be. And, again, if the compassion he has as a human is strong enough to follow him through and survive the transformation process, how amazingly compassionate must he have been in the first place. Either way, we know that Carlisle was a remarkable human and an extraordinary vampire.
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby skatepixie » Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:47 pm

Jazz Girl wrote:This issue has been put up for debate before. I don't think if it were a supernatural power, it would make his struggle any less admirable. It doesn't say that he doesn't struggle or that it is easy for him. The example indicates that it gives them the strength. What monumental strength that must be. And, again, if the compassion he has as a human is strong enough to follow him through and survive the transformation process, how amazingly compassionate must he have been in the first place. Either way, we know that Carlisle was a remarkable human and an extraordinary vampire.


I think that is true. However, the fact is that if his compassion had transfered into a supernatural gift, we would never see him actually struggle against and beat the temptation. The fact is that his ability to beat it is what inspired the others to follow. If he was able to do it because of a supernatural ability, it would have been much easier for potential "converts" to animal blood drinking to blow him off because "he's only able to do it because of his gift. So of course *I* won't be able."
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby smitten_by_twilight » Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:41 pm

suzzeeQ wrote:The Quileutes stopped going to Forks Hospital when the Cullens arrived and Carlisle was hired, so they do go to the hospital. They would especially go if they needed treatment that the medical center couldn't provide. Even if the Quileutes who carry the gene don't phase they still have the extra pair. For example, if Sam's dad went to jail and his DNA was entered into a database, it would show he has 24 pairs of chromosomes.


This is an even huger issue for the Quileute diaspora, including, say, Jacob's sister in Hawaii, who carries the gene without knowing anything about werewolves. Say she and her hubby did genetic testing before trying to get pregnant? :o Say some other Quileute was arrested, or did paternity testing, without having any idea? This reminds of what Aro said about human technology beginning to threaten their world; he meant vampires, but it clearly applies to werewolves, too (both kinds, probably).

corona wrote:About the only new official information from the guide is that imprinting has been confirmed to always occur between people of the opposite sex. This is a pretty strong indicator that the purpose is either breeding or romance. Outside of that, the wolf pack in the Twilight world will likely continue to debate what the true nature of imprinting in.

I think SM pretty well hands out the unofficial explanation in the interview, though, when she talks about Midsummer’s Night Dream and magic. Unofficially, imprinting is a way to bop the imprinter over the head with the 2x4 of love. That dovetails well with what is officially known, so that genetics are out the window and soul-mate romance is in; at least that is the way I read it.


I think that it being between people of opposite gender actually is a pretty strong argument for it being about breeding, despite the Midsummer Night's Dream quote. That imprinting manifests as love seems to me a logical way of roping in the non-imprinted partner, and a way of making it as comfortable and beneficial as possible. And I think my homosexual friends of both genders would be pretty amused at the idea that romance only happens between people of opposite genders. :)

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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby Jeakat » Thu Apr 21, 2011 6:37 am

suzzeeQ wrote:I think it's interesting that ALL of those who carry the gene have 24 pairs of chromosomes. What if one of them had their DNA tested or had gotten arrested and their DNA was entered into a database and someone noticed the 24 chromosomes? Don't you think someone would be suspicious?


Yeah, that does seem like a bit of a hole in the logic! When I read BD I assumed that their genes mutated at the time of transformation, not that they were born with 24 pairs. That just makes more sense to me, so I was really surprised when I learnt differently in the guide.
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby suzzeeQ » Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:28 am

I think that it being between people of opposite gender actually is a pretty strong argument for it being about breeding, despite the Midsummer Night's Dream quote. That imprinting manifests as love seems to me a logical way of roping in the non-imprinted partner, and a way of making it as comfortable and beneficial as possible. And I think my homosexual friends of both genders would be pretty amused at the idea that romance only happens between people of opposite genders.



I agree. I've always thought the purpose of imprinting was strictly reproduction. The romantic feelings involved are just a way to get the two people together. Not many people want to have babies with people they don't love.
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