Edward Cullen #6

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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby Jazz Girl » Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:01 pm

corona wrote:Also, I would totally agree with you that Edward would those exact terms to describe him leaving; being able to leave was strength but not being able to stay away was weakness. The context is confusing, however, because the wording seems to be SM describing the conflict as an author rather than from her character's distorted point of view.



And that is my issue with the whole discussion. Yes, that is exactly how Edward sees it, sees himself and his struggle to be with Bella. But, to me, the greatest champion of a literary character, the one who should be able to cut down through all of the obscuring factors and defend them most ardently, is the author. And, to me, it just really felt like SM left him hanging, as it were. To me, it read like she was saying he is weak, and he should have been stronger and that just felt so beyond wrong I wanted to cry.
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby Openhome » Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:06 am

I wanted to step in here and try to explain something that Pel was able to explain to me. Like you, I was puzzled and a bit upset about how Stephenie responded to the questions in the interview. She came across as almost crass and as absolutely team Jacob. It was rather shocking to read, and I didn't understand how and why she could say some of the things about the characters. Then I went back and re-read it, and I noticed the date on it.
August 29th, 2008. This was after hell month for her.
Pel confirmed just how awful the month was for Stephenie and just how long ago all this information was gathered. Here is a list of just SOME of the things that happened in August.

Here is what August 2008 was like:
Aug 2 released midnight signing of Breaking Dawn, 1,000 people
Aug 3 backlash
Aug 5 Chicago signing 1,000 people
Aug 7 Los Angeles 1,000 people
Aug 12 Seattle signing 1,000 people
Aug 20th or so Midnight Sun leaked
Aug 28 Midnight Sun put on Stephenie's site
Aug 29 Interview With Shannon Hale


I think the reason it comes across so insanely harsh is that she was reeling from what was a horrid month. It was even a bad one for the Lex, as that was the month we were hacked and shut down by haters.

My question now is why they didn't put a new interview in the book??? That one is wonderful as a piece to show where she was at in 2008 (it's almost heartbreaking to think about it now), but I'm not sure it shows us what she believes now. I have a feeling, after reading Bree, that Edward is a little more important to her now than he was then.
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby corona » Fri Apr 15, 2011 10:33 am

Openhome,

Those are very good points to bring up. I didn't think that any particular remark by SM was necessarily that bad, considering this was an interview and not a dissertation, and sometimes people say things they wish they had worded differently. Overall, though, I think once you add everything up there definitely seems to be a bias in the way SM discusses the characters, although she may very well be simply defensive of her Jacob character and feels that Edward needs no defense.

However, that sets up Edward as having "tragic" flaws, but Jacob has none and all can be forgiven (if indeed there is anything that needs to be forgiven) through his golden parachute of youth. Both Edward and Jacob make mistakes by using the rationale of the "ends justify the means". In Edward's case his decision to lie to Bella illuminates his tragic flaw, while Jacob's manipulation of Bella is considered noble. The books are riddled with these double-standards between the two. And that is OK, it is part of what makes reading them fun, because even the frustrations just means you are really getting into the story. It would have been nice, though, to see Jacob just once acknowledge that he went too far. By removing any responsibility for his actions in the books and in the interviews, there seems to be an underlying message that if we don't like Jacob then we don't understand him and don't get what everything is about. Frankly, I don't like him because I wouldn't want to be around him at all. When he is miserable he makes sure that everyone else is miserable. Jacob the he-man werewolf, the true alpha pack leader, is basically a drama queen.

Edit: I just wanted to add a small example of Jacob, the flawless one who is only concerned about Bella, in one of his exuberant moments:

I didn’t care if the wolves, either set, avenged me or called the Cullens’ justice fair. None of that mattered. All I cared about was my own justice. My revenge. The thing that had killed Bella would not live another minute longer.

If Bella’d survived, she would have hated me for this. She would have wanted to kill me personally.

But I didn’t care. She didn’t care what she had done to me—letting herself be slaughtered like an animal. Why should I take her feelings into account?


No, I don't like Jacob.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby Jazz Girl » Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:16 pm

Openhome~ Those were my thoughts exactly about the interview. Given the time period, her feelings, her... ambivalence... towards Edward could be, I suppose, justifiable. She said for a good long while after that that Edward was not speaking with her, or that if she finished Dark High Noon, it would be a very different book to say the least. However, I'm not sure that at least a part of that wasn't due to the fact that SM had, for lack of a better term, switched teams. The Explorations thread had a very long discussion a few months ago about the fact that SM seemed to change her allegiances midstream, that once she started expanding the character of Jacob because of the expanded series, she created a character that she loved more than Edward. SM's made no secret of the fact that she prefers Jacob to Edward. There are times that I read passages and I really feel like she got to a point where she felt like her dream and the origination of her story almost bound her hands in a way, because the story had to end with Edward & Bella. But, I really do wonder why she didn't do a second interview once she was, emotionally and literarily, in a better place.

Corona~ That, right there, is the number one passage I cite for people who ask me how I can say that Jacob never truly loved Bella. If he truly loved her, there's no way he could ever say those things. It honestly turns my stomach just a little bit.
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby corona » Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:22 pm

Jazz Girl,

All of the murderous intent aside, what that passage showed me was that Bella was an object in Jacob's world, which is how juveniles think. It is how we all viewed the world at one time in our youth. Here is that great quote from Sir Walter Scott that Khar uses to open up one of her chapters from EP:

“One of the most important phases of maturing is that of growth from self-centering to an understanding relationship to others. A person is not mature until he has both an ability and a willingness to see himself as one among others and to do unto those others as he would have them do to him.”

And, for me, that was Jacob's big issue, he just wasn't there yet. He wasn't prime-time Bella ready. The quality of Edward's love for Bella was on an entirely different level. And when we finally begin to learn that we are merely "one among others" it is such a humbling experience, the time when you first really reflect on some of your past experiences and think "My God, did I really do that, did I really say that?"

I was waiting for that to happen with Jacob, but no dice. One last interesting tidbit, courtesy of Jeakat from the Contradictions thread, where it was noted that Sam still loved Leah after imprinting on Emily:

He also knew that while he still loved Leah the same way he had before, it was irrelevant compared to how he felt about Emily.

But...Jacob did not love Bella the same way he had before.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby Esme echo » Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:54 pm

I'd love to see this discussion moved over to the Jacob thread . . . but I'd love to defend him, as well: I can't help myself!

1. In general, it's not fair to judge a person's motivations / decisions when they are grieving. Jacob was dealing with tremendous grief after Bella "died." His feelings and motivations were regrettable, but not the final word with respect to his character.

(Speaking of stupid actions when one is grieving -- how about Edward's suggestions to Jacob about giving Bella children?)

2. Jacob was an adolescent boy -- what? 16 or 17 years old? Do you know any kids that age? I do. I've mothered two boys through that. 16-17-year-old boys are generally self-involved and definately immature emotionally. You might as well expect a two-year-old to share a favorite toy with another toddler sans a screaming fit as to excpet a 17-yr-old boy to think outside his own emotional imperatives. Some are there, but precious few.

OF COURSE Jacob did stupid, unacceptable things! So did Edward. Jacob was waging a war he knew he was going to lose, but which was the most important, real part of his life. IMO when Jacob impressed on Renesmee he instantly grew up emotionally. He understood how to balance his relationship with Bella and had no regrets that it hadn't worked out the way he had originally wanted it to.

This new, grown-up Jacob was more responsible (mostly), and definately happier and more balanced than the tortured, "I'm losing the battle that justifies my existence" boy of moment before he imprinted.
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby corona » Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:45 pm

I would agree that one should be careful when judging a person's actions who is experiencing grief, but there are limits to acceptable behavior and Jacob crossed them. However, I didn't consider even that the final word on his character, I was actually waiting to see how he handled his new perspective after the imprinting. And there is where we have a difference of opinion, because I don't see him growing up at all, I see him as still being completely self-absorbed and unwilling to show Bella any respect when she is trying to reconnect with her child.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby Jazz Girl » Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:44 pm

Just a quick note to say Happy Father's Day to Edward. I know tomorrow's the big birthday. But, somehow, I'm guessing that today, celebrating the fatherhood that he never thought he'd enjoy, means just a bit more to him. So, Edward, happy Father's Day. The love and devotion your daughter enjoys know no bounds.
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby The Real Bella Swan Cullen » Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:50 pm

Jazz Girl,

Thank you so much for wishing Edward a good father's day. You have no idea how seriously he takes his role as father. As annoying as it is for Renesmee, he truly keeps our mixed up families together with his strength and love. Even I have been amazed at his patience and self-discipline as he hears all the thoughts from both vampires, wolves, and his little girl who is becoming quite grown up and lovely.
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby Jazz Girl » Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:28 pm

The Real Bella Swan Cullen wrote:Jazz Girl,

Thank you so much for wishing Edward a good father's day. You have no idea how seriously he takes his role as father. As annoying as it is for Renesmee, he truly keeps our mixed up families together with his strength and love. Even I have been amazed at his patience and self-discipline as he hears all the thoughts from both vampires, wolves, and his little girl who is becoming quite grown up and lovely.



Ahh, Bella. You love him most and best. But he brings so many of us a little bit of happy. How could we not recognize what's always most important to him? Thank you for sharing him just a little. And, no thanks. While I do not have a baby girl, I have a feeling that the thoughts swirling around in the head of my teenaged son would be enough to turn even your eternally gorgeous hair grey.
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