Contradictions in the Guide

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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby corona » Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:54 pm

Those are good catches on Jane and Carlisle. I also think it beggars belief that Carlisle visited with the Volturi for 20 years and Jane never happened to meet him. If nothing else, you would think Aro sending a bleeding human to Carlisle as a test would have fascinating entertainment for everyone, so how could Jane have been completely unaware of what Carlisle was all about; and then she never bothered to meet him?

Also, the Guide says that most members of the coven rarely leave the tower, with only Caius being the exception. Jane and Alec are part of the special clean-up crew for problem covens, and I think their only major extended excursion was during the new-born wars, but that was the early 1800’s, and the immortal children issue was dealt with centuries earlier, so there is nothing during that time period that would have kept them away from the tower.

Here is one thing I wouldn’t call necessarily a contradiction, but something that just doesn’t add up in my mind, and that is Heidi and her practice of regularly herding victims into the tower. The group Bella saw was about 40 people; with a feeding every two weeks that comes to over 1,000 people per year, and over 10,000 people over the last decade. People do disappear, yes, but that many people in regular groups of 40 at a time? And nothing is known about it, nobody in the entire world has ever put together a stunning pattern of groups of 40 people disappearing every two weeks like clockwork for decades on end? Groups that include children? Missing human reports that spike every two weeks, all with a group tour or vacation prize connection? Wow. Sorry, that is absolutely impossible.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby smitten_by_twilight » Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:16 pm

That's a great catch about Jane and Carlisle. I admit the image of bleeding humans being delivered to Carlisle has always been accompanied in my mind by a circle of amused, observing vampires, and the idea of Jane not being part of it, given her sadism, seems far-fetched if she was in the area at all. She would enjoy both Carlisle's pain and the human's. But the Guide does not give exhaustive information, so maybe there is a reason we have not heard of for her lack of prior direct contact with Carlisle.

And, Corona, that's a great catch about Heidi! :lol: I never thought of it that way, human authorities conveniently overlooking that every week or two large groups go into a building but don't come out! She may get some "fish" from other sources, but that tour group thing would be a problem even if it was just a few times a year.
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby Openhome » Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:09 pm

This has very little to do with the Guide, but everything to do with vampire lore...

corona wrote:Here is one thing I wouldn’t call necessarily a contradiction, but something that just doesn’t add up in my mind, and that is Heidi and her practice of regularly herding victims into the tower. The group Bella saw was about 40 people; with a feeding every two weeks that comes to over 1,000 people per year, and over 10,000 people over the last decade. People do disappear, yes, but that many people in regular groups of 40 at a time? And nothing is known about it, nobody in the entire world has ever put together a stunning pattern of groups of 40 people disappearing every two weeks like clockwork for decades on end? Groups that include children? Missing human reports that spike every two weeks, all with a group tour or vacation prize connection? Wow. Sorry, that is absolutely impossible.


I know, right?? I read that in New Moon and did the math and had to laugh. It's just like Buffy the Vampire Slayer's town of Sunnyvale. THOUSANDS of people in that little town died of supernatural causes, and yet no one seemed to complain. It must be a theme with vampire novels that they live among clueless humans who breed at such a high rate that they don't care about attrition due to massive blood loss.
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby corona » Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:21 am

Well, SM did as good of a job as she possibly could with the others, but the Volturi were always going to present a problem of feeding a lot of vampires without detection. True, this isn’t an actual contradiction, just another gap that wasn’t filled in by the Guide, though I was very interested in Heidi’s bio to see what would be attempted. In the end, SM can't avoid something that every vamp author is eventually guilty of, which is portraying humans as clueless cattle at some point.

BTW, does anyone in the Twi universe work harder for less compensation than Heidi? An eternity of bringing humans to the lazy duff Volturi, working 24/7/365, all for a couple hours every few weeks of being able to wear a cloak that was dyed a few shades darker that the regular guard? And then she’s back on the road again. That is one crappy job.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby alphanubilus » Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:36 pm

corona wrote:Well, SM did as good of a job as she possibly could with the others, but the Volturi were always going to present a problem of feeding a lot of vampires without detection. True, this isn’t an actual contradiction, just another gap that wasn’t filled in by the Guide, though I was very interested in Heidi’s bio to see what would be attempted. In the end, SM can't avoid something that every vamp author is eventually guilty of, which is portraying humans as clueless cattle at some point.

BTW, does anyone in the Twi universe work harder for less compensation than Heidi? An eternity of bringing humans to the lazy duff Volturi, working 24/7/365, all for a couple hours every few weeks of being able to wear a cloak that was dyed a few shades darker that the regular guard? And then she’s back on the road again. That is one crappy job.



I don't necessarily see Heidi having a crappy job. Her abilities, have allowed her to feed at the table of the Volturi, one of the most feared, if not the most feared clan in all vampiredom. Aro could grow board of any other vampire and have them offed, including Jane, Alec, Marcus, Caius, if needs be, but Heidi's talents are the most usefull, due to what she can constantly give her masters. As Meyer's vampires don't tire, she never grows restless, and I'm sure as she will live forever, that she is merely abiding her time, until she'll replace somebody else, and be at the top. I think for her, being in a position of power, any position, is better than not having one.

All you have to do is look at politics... ugh...

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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby suzzeeQ » Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:38 am

Did Sam graduate high school? The TSG said he only attended the high school on the rez. But it said that Leah graduated from the high school on the rez. He was nineteen in Twilight so I assumed that he graduated.
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby vermishelle » Sat Apr 30, 2011 3:32 pm

suzzeeQ wrote:Did Sam graduate high school? The TSG said he only attended the high school on the rez. But it said that Leah graduated from the high school on the rez. He was nineteen in Twilight so I assumed that he graduated.

I think it's possible that Sam dropped out after he started phasing. After those first two weeks in the wolf form he managed to transform back into human, but he probably was afraid to go back to school. What if this happens again while he is in class, among other students? Sam was the only wolf then, with no one to help him, so it took him a long time to learn to control his transformations. By that time it was too late for him to return to school, he missed too much classes to graduate that year. I'm not saying that's what happened, I'm just saying that it's possible :D .
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby smitten_by_twilight » Mon May 02, 2011 7:39 pm

suzzeeQ wrote:Did Sam graduate high school?


I don't think we've seen any of the wolves graduate from high school. Maybe they'll sit for their GED exams together :lol: I wonder if anybody has worked that into the fanfiction? A diploma doesn't mean much for your wolfy life, but it means something for your post-wolf life.
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby olorin » Fri May 06, 2011 1:17 am

Back to Heidi's fishing, I actually thought the guide pg 174 and 182 made that very convincing and well-constructed.
The Volturi just need to make sure no humans are in sight when one of Heidi's tours arrive at the church, which shouldn't be too difficult on private land with their sharp senses. On public records those flights probably look like cargo deliveries for their own company or something.
I think there must be thousands of unsolved missing persons cases around the globe every day, and a lot of criminal organizations dealing in kidnapping and slavery, probably the least of which in the USA. (see here) And Heidi could simply hide among them. Many people in developing countries would probably do a lot, to get a well-paying job in a foreign country. She takes random victims from different places all over the world with different lies,destinations and vehicles, only joining together near Volterra. And there's never any repeating patterns or evidence leading to Volterra. I mean c'mon, not even a dedicated, resourceful and independent superspy like James Bond could find one of those missing persons once they are gone. And cops who investigate such cases can't spend millions to investigate every little hunch they have and follow it across borders. Those disappearances all over the planet look totally unconnected.

Their efficiency is not about humans being stupid cattle. It's about the Volturi being more clever, resourceful and experienced than every intelligence agency on the planet, and human security measures and investigation methods don't account for a vampire's advanced abilities. Each lesser guard has probably their own spy methods and resources (like government contacts), to protect Volterra and keep updated on vampire related rumors around the planet.

Finally on the issue of Heidi having a crappy job, I think it's more like a never-ending game for her, just like James' or George's games. It's simply a part of her nature to seduce people and see how long she can manipulate them. That's why Aro chose her for this task, though she only has job security until Aro finds somebody better for it, just like the rest. Also she is not working alone. Out of boredom some guards often help her gladly with the logistics and everything, though Heidi stays in charge. Alice said that this would give them something to do between punishments. Of course it is easier to grab dregs and criminals from nearby cities like other vampires, or simply to buy the food pretending to be a slave trader, or to steal people from their beds, knocking them unconscious and shipping them in a crate to Volterra. But with their way the Volturi get large variety blood undiluted by drugs, with the additional amusement of an authentic hunt, when the victims' confusion turns slowly to horror. I guess that's what they call prestigious. :?
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby olorin » Sat May 07, 2011 1:24 am

And now concerning an older topic:
smitten_by_twilight wrote:The Guide carries over something I noticed looking at the Lexicon's timeline: Jasper was only with Maria about 68 years, although he tells Bella in Eclipse that it was almost a century.

I was also pretty confused by that. :?
But I read Eclipse ch 13 again and did the math with the guide timeline ;) , and what Jasper said was:
"I'd been her companion for as many years as Carlisle and Edward have been together".
And looking at the timeline you see Jasper staying with Maria 75 years from 1863 to 1938.
And Edward also stayed with Carlisle for 75 years from 1931 (Edward returning from exile) to 2006 (Jasper telling his story).
So the math fits. 8-)

Also later Jasper said: "After a century of instant gratification, I found self-discipline challenging"
and including his human life ;) he was 94 years old when he left Maria, and 104 when he found Alice.
So again the math fits. :D
So much for that misunderstanding. :banghead:

EDIT
vermishelle wrote:If the author wanted for Jasper to leave Maria in 1938, then, to fit the information from “Eclipse”, the timeline should have been as follows: Peter is transformed in 1930 (not 1920) – Charlotte is transformed in 1932 (not 1938) – they run away in 1933 – Peter comes back for Jasper in 1938 and Jasper leaves with him.

I agree with everything accept Peter's transformation. What Jasper said about Peter in Eclipse was:
"Decades later, I developed a friendship with a newborn who'd remained useful and survived his first three years, against the odds."
So Jasper didn't say Peter was only 3 years old when he left Maria, just that his first years were difficult.
It only puts Peter's transformation at least 20 years after Jasper's in 1863 and at least 3 years before his defection in 1933, which actually fits the guide somehow. (the 1920s end in 1929 ;) )
So the only screw-ups in the guide here are Charlotte's date of birth and transformation, which should be 1914 and 1932, just as you said.
Last edited by olorin on Sat May 07, 2011 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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