Ambivalences

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Ambivalences

Postby December » Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:00 am

The subject of Stephenie's ambivalences has come up a lot recently on several different threads. Just how conflicted are her feelings about Jake v. Edward? about the irreplaceable preciousness of humanity v. the suspect blessings of immortality? about reconciling Bella's choice with Christian values? It's a big topic, because Twilight certainly gives some mixed messages. And it's arguable that those ambivalences have profoundly shaped the way the story came out.

Anyway, I'm moving that discussion here, so we can have it one place.


Please keep in mind the usual ground rules for serious discussion threads:

This is a thread for EXPLORING our different responses to Stephenie's story, NOT DEBATING them.The most interesting ideas get aired when people are genuinely interested in exchanging views, trying to explore and understand other people's starting point, rather than defending their own.

1. Courtesy is obligatory. Reread your post for tone before you hit the submit button: things often come out sharper than they sounded in your head. Go the extra mile to be conciliatory: it makes all the difference.

2. This includes courtesy to the author. Intelligent criticism of Stephenie's writing is welcome, and an essential part of the conversation; just be sure you put it nicely.

3. There are no right and wrong views here, just different perspectives. You don't get points for out-arguing other people. If someone else's reasoning doesn't make sense to you, ask them to explain their thinking to you -- don't attack their illogic. Keep an open mind. They may surprise you.

4. We're not here to change each other's views.We're here to understand them -- and explain our own. Please keep that in mind as you write. If we all agreed, think how boring it would be!

5. Respect each other. We all come here with different experience and expertise (whether formal or informal). Be appreciative of other people's and modest about your own. This can be especially important where the ideas of formal literary criticism are lurking at the edges of the conversation (ditto clinical psychology, another discipline with obvious bearing on many TW discussions). An academic perspective can be extremely illuminating, but it doesn't ipso facto trump all others.

6. Have fun! That's what we're here for.

But on to the interesting stuff! The current discussion probably began with the following post of Corona's:
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Re: Explorations

Postby corona » Tue May 03, 2011 1:57 pm

How long does it take me to work out Jacob’s role in this series? Well, apparently it takes months. I keep wanting to come back and discuss more, but I either don’t have to time to write things up or I start formulating a different opinion or theory.

Here is my latest unified theory for all things Jacob, and it also addresses some concerns about Bella and Edward and SM’s view of the whole thing. Very briefly, I don’t think SM ever “fell out of love” with her young couple, but I do think she became conflicted over the whole eternal consequences of vampirism stuff. I keep seeing quotes about choosing between life and death, and wanting to delay Bella’s choice, and Edward’s “weakness”, and I think she really developed a problem with all of it, regardless of her separating, within her story, vampirism from death and demonic elements and then creating a vampiric transformation and nature based on “science”. SM went to a lot of effort to do that, but she doesn’t use that language in her interviews, which I think is significant. Her interviews often tend to use language that leans towards the more traditional view of vampires as creatures of death rather than mere supernatural.

I think Jacob was a character that eventually became the avatar for her own conflicts. I can go into more detail, but basically the most jarring thing about him was his complete and utter self-absorption at the imprinting “reveal” scene with Bella and Renesmee. That was stunning. A few changes in that scene would have reduced a great deal of antipathy to his character, but it wasn’t done. My theory is that it wasn’t done for a reason, because Jacob had actually come to represent SM’s own huge conflict with the subject, and it was something that she wasn’t going to apologize for, and therefore neither would Jacob. I think that Jacob, the character that lives separately even from SM, might have actually acted differently, but he wasn’t allowed to. And because of that, I cannot go back and reinterpret any of his prior scenes with a measure of sympathy, a kind of meeting in the middle where I can grudgingly think “OK, Jake, you may have a point there”, and where Jacob might reflect “OK, maybe I took it a little bit too far there, especially knowing what I know now”.

In reference to prior comments about Wuthering Heights, I had always thought that that book was actually the archetype of everything SM didn’t want in her story. There are a million Wuthering Heights out there, and we all wonder why those books always end that way, and then our English Lit teacher always has to patiently explain how stories about real love are really uninteresting and how these kinds of books are based more on reality and why that is a good thing. And they certainly can be very good stories, except everyone is really disappointed and depressed at the ending. SM’s genius was giving everyone what they wanted, which is of course the worst thing to do unless you want to create a multi-billion dollar series. What a novel concept, giving the customers exactly what they wanted instead of telling them what was best for them. The whole series was an anti-Wuthering Heights, based on the really dumb proposition that a girl chooses love above everything else, and then pursues it relentlessly for eternal happiness. Wow, what a crazy amateurish idea, it couldn’t sell millions of books now could it? But it turned out to be sheer genius. So, why then the ambivalence in the Illustrated Guide, with SM switching back and forth between whether one choice is good or it’s the other? It seems to be another conflict that arose within SM while writing this story.

Let me throw in something else real quick. I think it is a hell of a lot harder writing "feel good" romance than it is writing heartbreak romance, because it is just so difficult to evoke true passion. SM not only pulled it off, she actually did both in New Moon.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Explorations

Postby Openhome » Wed May 04, 2011 10:27 pm

All I can say to that is...
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Re: Explorations

Postby Jazz Girl » Mon May 09, 2011 11:10 am

Hot damn, Corona. You did it. You really did it. You took every objection I've ever had to SM's treatment of the central romance in The Saga, all the interuptions and interferences she threw in, the fact that she never seemed to be okay with the fact that her heroine was choosing her hero AND the fact that she never truly LET her heroine choose her hero and vice versa and wrapped it up in one nice neat little package, with an "anti Wuthering Heights" bow. Ummm... wow?
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Re: Explorations

Postby Alphie » Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:35 pm

I just had a way too long conversation with Openhome about all of this trying to figure out what is the general "problem" that you are all trying to sort out. Forgive me if I jump around a bit, but I'm going to try to organize thoughts and I writing.

Ok, so let's start with the "Stephenie loves Jacob more than Edward" issue. From what I am reading the problem stems from two situations/moments/ideas. First, Edward isn't really "present" in Breaking Dawn and the second being where Stephenie mentioned loving Jacob so much in the Guide. Here are my thoughts on those ideas... and please, these are my thoughts and not Stephenie's! I am going to speculate on what she was thinking, but I really don't know for certain.

The first time I read the plot of the 4th book it was called Forever Dawn and Jacob was nearly an after thought in the story up until the imprinting. The entire story was told from Bella's point of view. The pregnancy, the birth, the imprinting - all of it was from Bella's point of view. Jacob wasn't around much at all until he actually saw the baby (when Nessie was a few weeks old) and imprinted on her. And Edward was there all the time. Edward was there worrying over Bella at ever ultrasound, for ever sip of blood Rosalie tricked her into drinking, for every conversation about how to save Bella. And then there is the scene where he hears the baby for the first time. It was amazing and beautiful and it actually made me cry the first time I read it. From that point on, Edward is in love with his daughter and fighting to keep the baby AND Bella alive. The birth and transformation all take place from Bella's PoV, which is difficult because it's nothing but pain and horror. The only moments of clarity and peace come when Bella focuses on Edward or his voice or something along those lines.

That is all lost on us when we read those moments from Jacob's point of view in Breaking Dawn. There is so much more conflict in those scenes by telling the story from Jacob's perspective. But in showing the conflict happening with in Jacob, we lose the love and compassion of Edward in those moments. But for me, as a reader, since I had read those moments from Bella's PoV, I still recalled them from her PoV when I read them from Jacob's PoV. I could still feel how Edward was falling in love with his daughter even though Jacob was there getting angrier by the minute. I discussed this with Openhome and she made the excellent point that the rest of the fandom didn't have the experience. All you got was the anger and the tension. And it makes me wonder... did the same thing happen with Stephenie? Since she had written it and seen it in her mind play out from Bella's PoV very lovingly, did she just assume the rest of the fandom would see that, too, even when told from Jake's aggressive PoV?

Also, just looking at Breaking Dawn itself, I never got the sense that Edward was absent. Openhome suggested that after Alice has her vision of the Volturi coming, that Edward is pretty much out of the story until the VERY end when he reads Bella's mind. I didn't see it like that. He stayed with Bella and Nessie as each of the witnesses arrived. And he has that fantastic line about being her father - not her creator! He's there as Bella is learning how to shield. He's there for Christmas. He's next to Bella in the battle, telling everyone what the thoughts of the Volturi and the Wolves are. How does this make him "absent?" Is it that Bella changes so much as a vampire, and essentially as a character, that she has more of a dominating presence in the story and Edward is more by her side than standing tall over her, protecting her?

The other side of it is that Stephenie fell out of love with Edward and came to love Jacob more than Edward. First off, I didn't get that from the interview in the guide. What I got was that she grew to love Jacob more than she expected. I don't think she ever flat out said that she loves Jacob more than Edward. Consider that in her original story line Edward never left Bella and Jacob was there to warn Bella, loving her the way a boy loves his high school crush, and that was the extent of it until he imprinted. Then in the process of expanding and deepening the story, Jacob became this huge, central character that was a foil for Edward and offered Bella a choice... Stephenie came to "meet" Jacob through the writing in a way that she didn't do with Edward. I think what Stephenie is saying is that she grew to love Jacob so much more than she expected. That her feelings for Jacob changed from liking him as a side character to loving him as a fully fleshed out character. It almost echos what Bella went through, doesn't it? Edward was always the central focus for Bella's love... but Jacob pushed his way in just enough to tempt her away. But he didn't. In the end it was Edward... because it was always Edward.

There was something else Openhome and I talked about that I can't remember. Hum. Maybe it was the point to the imprinting? I can't remember. She'll have to jump in here and tell me what it was! But for now, go ahead and chew on those thoughts for a moment.

Would it have made a big difference for you if you had seen those scenes from Edward's PoV? Would you change your opinion that Edward was "lost" in the book if you had seen how much time he spent with Bella? And why, exactly, do you think Stephenie fell out of love with Edward just because she loves Jacob? Make me see what you are seeing!
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Re: Explorations

Postby Jazz Girl » Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:44 pm

Alphie~ I would first hazard to speak for a great majority of us and say you have been gifted with an experience that many of us would give our eye teeth for. I know I would. I think you have a very interesting supposition. Perhaps if we had seen those events through different eyes, through the scope of love and devotion rather than hate and rage, it could indeed make a difference. It would at least be an experiment I would gladly undertake, strictly for research purposes, of course. Oh who am I trying to kid. I'd probably sell my soul to get my hands on that original version.

For me, it was never a matter of Edward’s absence. It was a matter of him being supplanted. Every moment that should have been Edward’s, every moment between Bella & Edward that should have been beautiful and intimate between the two of them was overrun by Jacob and his moral superiority or his hatred or his prejudice or his self indulgence or his self importance. Or even by Rosealie and her all-consuming obsession. Moments between Bella & Edward & Renesmee that should have been sweet and joyous were overrun by Jacob and his sense of entitlement, or Leah and her bitterness.. And, I can’t say that it was the point of view either. Because the same was true in the first and the last books, as well as the second.

I never saw Bella’s strength as a vampire as anything other than exactly as it should have been. It’s what was needed to bring balance for them. I wanted to see her by his side, fighting with him, protecting their family as a team.

In the end, Stephanie never had to say that she ended up loving Jacob more than Edward (though I know that she said she would not have made the same choice Bella did). She showed us. Yes, Edward ends up with an amazing love with his soulmate, a beautiful daughter whom he worships and who makes his life more complete than he ever thought it could be, and a neverending future to make every wish he’s ever had come true. But, he’s earned it. He suffered for it, worked for it, been forced to look at everything he thought he was and knows he is and learn some fundamental truths for it, walked through fire for it. But, his future will always be complicated by the presence of the one person who threatened him, threatened that happiness and that love, who literally tortured him with a smile on his face. And there’s not a damn thing he can do about it except accept it with a smile. Because Jacob’s connection isn’t anything he had to work for or earn. His future was handed to him without so much as a finger lifted. In the end, Edward doesn’t lose his love to Jacob. But he has to hand over his daughter.
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Re: Explorations

Postby Alphie » Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:46 am

Trust me when I say that I am well aware how unique a perspective I have on this series! I've always felt like an outside to the fandom, if you can believe that! That I couldn't "play" the way I wanted to because of what I knew. And Stephenie warned me about that before she sent me anything. But I wouldn't change it now that it's nearly at an end.

Anyway...

I see your point about Edward having to always spend his life dealing with ths one person who almost cost him happiness and how it frustrates you. I guess I always imagined that the "perfect forever" that they get at the end includes Edward and Jacob letting bygones be bygones and moving on. But I think it's clear from the trailer of Breaking Dawn that that moment where they come to terms is going to take a while to get to. Edward throws Jacob across the room, and I am 99.9% certain that is his reaction to finding out about the imprinting.

It's for this idea that you have mentioned that I so so so so very much want another book! I speak totally from a place of supposition about this, but there has to be many complications that arise as Nessie grows up! Imagine her as an 6 year old looking like an 18 or 19 year old, as beautiful and mature as she is, and Jacob having to censer his thoughts about this beautiful girl because 1 - She is only 6 years old! and 2 - Edward can read his mind! Fan fiction gets it right, I think, when they show Edward not dealing with the sexy thoughts coming from both Jacob and Nessie as their relationship grows.

It's just another argument for the idea of free will. Not only was Jacob not really given a choice, but Edward and Bella weren't given one either when it comes to how they want to deal with Jacob. They either keep him around and keep Nessie happy, or watch Nessie be sad and long for Jacob if they send him away.

But on the flip side, I wonder if whatever plot Stephenie would have in store for these characters would put Jacob in a position to earn Edward's trust once and for all. I didn't think at the end of Breaking Dawn that Aro was just going to walk away from Nessie so easily. I can see how he wouldn't start a war over the immortal child concept, but Aro likes to collect talents people. Who is more talented than a hybrid vampire who can pass for a human, walk in the sun without giving away her supernatural qualities, and show people what she wants and have them respond favorably to it. Wouldn't Nessie be great at fishing for the Volturi? She wouldn't have to worry about how the sun would effect her, and with the touch of a hand she could show people that she wants them to come below on a tour with her. Because she is so charming and draws people in, they would willingly and happily go with her. So I absolutely think Aro is going to want Nessie for his own use at some point and it would be very possible that Jake might have something to do with stopping it from happening.

I'm pretty much writing fan fiction here, but I'm always trying to see the possibilities of why Stephenie write things the way she did. Having watched the building of the other books, I've heard her say more than once that this thing in part A has to happen so that part B can happen because she really sees them ending up at point C. I have always taken the ending of Breaking Dawn as the beginning of Nessie's story. AS much as Edward and Bella get their resolution, it is that much left open for how it will work out with Nessie and Huilen and Jacob and whatever else may come.

How far off topic did I go? I'm pretty sure I just rambled! LOL!
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Re: Explorations

Postby corona » Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:30 pm

Alphie,

I would have loved to read the Forever Dawn draft, not only for the moment when Edward first hears his child, but also for the scene between Edward and Bella when he realizes that Bella wants to keep the child. Absolutely electrifying, with everyone forced to take sides. We need to be in Bella's head at that moment because she knows she is going to have to hurt Edward, but she is convinced she is making the right choice. So much is lost from that POV shift! And then the moment of truth when Edward is able to hear his child for the first time is, instead, witnessed through the eyes of Jacob who sees it as a betrayal. Bella's moment of vindication is at hand, she and Edward are finally back on the same page again, but we are unable to experience that with them because Jacob is disgusted and has to leave. It is difficult to shake the feeling that the intent of this POV shift is that Jacob's story is more important.

However, none of this is here or there. The story has been written, and I don't think that SM was necessarily wrong in what she did, because there are a lot of Jacob fans out there. But were there more Jacob fans before BD? I don't know. All I know is that I resented the POV shift because I didn't find Jacob likeable, at all. In his first chapter he confirms to us that he fully intended to kill Edward at that "joke of a wedding", except he was somehow caught in a phase-lock. We find out he has to suffer the inconviences that go along with having a wolf pack member imprint on your family, although Jacob is actually the least inconvenienced of all other known imprintings. Yet, he breaks Paul's nose for eating a bag of chips. Jacob knows that Paul won't fight back and that Rachel will be upset with him, so he leaves before being tempted to hit him again. This irony, later, is completely lost on him. His thoughts are ugly, uncharitable, and always filled with a bitter anger. Before his first chapter is through he is racing off to kill Edward, again. He does this alone, even though he wanted his fellow pack members to join in the fight and kill everyone including Bella.

I know SM calls him funny, sarcastic, and snarky, but that wasn't my reaction. However, despite everything I find repellant about Jacob, I don't consider him evil. Jacob's self-absorption, though, is staggering, which is why I find the imprinting reveal scene with Bella so viscerally disgusting. This is Jacob's final penultimate moment to demonstrate that he is actually growing up and learning responsibility, but it is beyond him to find one drop of consideration for Bella. There is no respect or tact on display; instead Jacob makes it quite clear that Renesmee is his, although he is willing to share her. Wow, that's very big of him. I wonder how he will react if he and Renesmee have a child and some members of the wolf pack want to pay a visit; I have a feeling his reaction to a possible imprinting will be very different, but then the rules always apply differently to him. It's understandable that he would lash out at Paul for eating his chips because, hey, it's Jacob's chips, Paul should understand that, but Edward and Bella just need to deal with him taking their child.

And that was the crux of the matter for me, that Jacob doesn't play by the same rules and, most importantly, that there are no consequences for this. Edward has his hellish moments in Eclipse, which often seemed to play out as a novel-length rebuke to him for leaving in New Moon. EC even ends with Edward sitting in torture for an entire night, ala NM, wondering where his future lies with Bella. All that I asked from Jacob was a simple acknowledgement that there were times that he crossed the line himself, but there is nothing. Edward hurts Bella = Bad. Jacob hurts Bella = Noble.

It isn't the actual imprinting, it is his actions and attitude during that scene. I just get the overwhelming feeling that a message is being sent, which is that Jacob is absolutely and utterly blameless for anything that he did. The scene even ends with Jacob off with Renesmee while Bella sits in a corner of shame.

I think the logical conclusion one can make is that Edward has done some bad things, so he must suffer the consequences, but since Jacob never suffers any consequences, he must therefore have done nothing wrong; ergo Jacob is the better man. Another conclusion (one I feel more comfortable with) is that SM was grateful to have this character develop for her, but felt bad having to drag him through the whole mess and so she completely absolves him. That doesn't quite explain all of Jacob's anger, though, so I theorize that Jacob also represents SM's conflict with Bella and her choice, and it was something that she wasn't going to apologize for.

Either way, I am sure that SM felt blindsided by much of the reaction, but can you see how many fans would get the impression that she loved Jacob more? Edward has flaws, but Jacob has none. Choosing Jacob is choosing Life, so choosing Edward is...

I've gone on too long again.
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Re: Explorations

Postby StellaBlueBella » Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:55 am

I am posting to confess to lurking on this thread... I really have been intending to make a proper post for some days now but time keeps slipping away so I will "briefly" throw a few thoughts out there:

Jacob vs Edward's "presence" in BD. Ok so here is were I will try to stay brief because it is late and I think really, I can be of two minds about this so I could possible ramble on endlessly, really I mean it. Plus, I haven't read their sections of the guide. I've mainly read about the smaller, lesser known characters so I could be missing some insight but here's my take on it...

We love Edward and will basically always want more of him, hence the enormous amounts of fanfic out there devoted to him. Could SM ever really give us enough Edward? Is such a thing even possible? And his POV is basically infinite. I read Midnight Sun and immediately went and re-read BD. All throughout my re-read I was thinking I would love to have an EPOV of the entire book but especially after Bella is turned. He must see and know so much more. I would have to go back and review in order to provide specific examples but the entire time, I felt these whispers or hints or clues that there were things going on that Edward knew that Bella did not. So, maybe it was a "technical decision". Either commit to tell SO much more story in order to have a more present Edward or limit his exposure. I mean lets not forget what he was off doing... Researching with Carlisle for away to understand Nessie's growth, etc. Some pretty serious work that honestly no one but Edward and Carlisle could do. Also, from a more technical standpoint, the conflict for Bella and Edward was resolving. I think SM had a choice to let that wrap up naturally or to keep it open by adding new conflict to the Edward and Bella story. I think the reason we have a more present Jake is because this is were the conflict still needs resolution. I think at some point SM expects us to trust Edward and Bella, to know they love eachother and Nessie. That doesn't mean we don't crave more Edward interaction or that we or SM love him any less... It's just that it was time to let the Edward and Bella story come to a natural conclusion. Jacob still needed some work to get to a good place.

4. Honestly, BD is my favorite book in the saga. I know I am alone on this little island. I think it's funny how everyone says BDs too perfect but yet there are still all these things to issue with.... Like Edward having to deal with Jacob forever. And how is poor Nessie supposed to mature into an adult women while her father can read her and any of her love interest's minds? I know I have heard other issues but, you all get my point right? Sure doesn't sound perfect to me.
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Re: Explorations

Postby Alphie » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:44 pm

Corona - I see what you are saying that Jacob doesn't have to face the same rules as Edward and how tortured Edward is while Jake is pretty carefree. I see that, I really do. But can it be argued that the reasoning behind that is simply... that is their character? Could it also have to do with the idea that Edward loves her more? And she loves Edward more? I've ALWAYS felt that no matter how much Jacob loved Bella that Edward loved her more. So it tortures him more and he goes into that dark mood. Where as Jacob wants her and lusts for her, but when the alternate path is shown to him, he bounces right into that other way of life without looking back because he no longer wants or lusts for Bella.

Stella - I don't hate Breaking Dawn! I like it and I got a big kick out of the Jacob sections... and out of the honeymoon! But I had a VERY different experience with it than the rest of the fandom. I liked the plot because I knew what was coming. I didn't even mind the happy ending! What I did mind was how it rambled. I felt it needed tightening and editing. I felt this way about Order of the Phoenix and Deathly Hallows to some extent. Did BD REALLY have to be over 700 pages? REALLY? I don't think so. Thus, my issue with it is that there is a LOT of rehashing and restating that we didn't need. I think the movie will hurry those bits up and give us etra moments that are just more interesting - like the Volturi getting the wedding invite and such!
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