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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby Tornado » Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:38 am

You know, I too feel that Jacob has been left incomplete. Now that he knows the Cullens, and knows Edward, I really wish that there could be an acknowledgement of those times he did overstep the boundaries (and he did!) and an apology, now that he knows they are not the monsters he thought they were.

I'm interested. I've heard several people say that SM is Team Jacob, but I've never seen an interview myself where she declares that. I've only heard her say that they're all like her children and she can't choose between them. Is there one on here somewhere? I thought I'd seen all the interviews, but maybe I've missed something.
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby December » Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:29 am

Well, it's a good question, because the reasons for suspecting Stephenie of a partiality for Jake are subtle. (And no doubt Edward-girls are super-sensitive to any hint of disloyalty on her part. You know how jealousy sharpens one's alertness to these kinds of little signs!...). I'm going to leave it to others here to run through the "evidence" (JG? Corona?) -- I'm sure they can do it more thoroughly than I can. But you might be interested in the Jacob Effect thread (now on the Lex archive boards) which was started back in Dec 2007 to discuss a comment Stephenie posted on Jake's Myspace thread:

"Don't tell E, but I do completely love you best!"

Now clearly, this was done tongue in cheek (and Stephenie later posted on the Jake Effect thread to say so), but it sure got people's attention at the time. If you read through the Jake Effect discussion, you can get some idea why EC made Edward-girls wildly anxious about Stephenie's loyalties. (This was the year before BD came out, so it doesn't deal with Jake's role in BD). See for example the long convo that takes off from this page. (Also Visitor's earlier post for the prosecution, so to speak, here). Hope this helps!
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby Jazz Girl » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:06 am

December~ You would put me on the spot like that, wouldn't you? Well, without any reference materials to use, I'll do my best. In fact, SM has essentially proclaimed her preference for Jacob. I'm trying to remember which interview specifically, but when you read so many interview, sometimes the particulars escape you. It was a magazine interview given shortly before the release of Breaking Dawn, I believe. She was asked about the differences between the romantic rivals for Bella's affections ( :rolleyes: ) and, in her discussion of them, that is where she said if she was having to make the choice, Jacob was much more her type of suitor. She also made a similar comment, I believe on the behind-the-scenes of the New Moon DVD. Would that I had perfect vampire recall, but alas, I am only a human woman. Mayhaps Corona can do better.
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby December » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:53 am

Heh. Sorry, Jazzgirl! (*grin*). I can't remember the interview references either (apart from the Myspace lark). Seems to me, though, that one can also infer her partiality from the books themselves. The Jake Effect thread goes through the arguments from EC; i'm pretty sure you've all discussed the evidence from BD here (seem to recall Corona alluding to some of it recently on Explorations...).

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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby corona » Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:46 pm

I'm not sure if she ever said she definitely preferred Jacob, I just don't know. I distinctly recall that she definitely gave a preference when asked whether or not she would want to be a werewolf or vampire, and she chose werewolf. I think it was because she simply couldn't envision eternity as a vampire, and the choice was so permanent. As a werewolf she could live as long as she wanted, but she would still have the choice of returning to a normal life. But, she has also described Edward as the ideal man and the "perfect boyfriend", albeit with some flaws that Bella eventually helps iron out.

In my opinion, though, I think she would have chosen Edward if he had been a human. She almost always describes Edward in more romantic terms, while referring to Jacob as the alternative pragmatic "choice". I don't think she could ever divorce their actual nature from their character, though, so while she might be drawn more to Edward, she would have chickened out and gone with Jacob. And I don't say that snidely, I think she took that question very seriously, and who wouldn't blanch at the thought of having to live through three days of burning in hell, breaking off all contact with your family and friends, and thirsting for blood and wanting to kill someone to quench that thirst. Take all of the ladies that love Edward and despise Jacob, and then actually present them with that choice along with all of the consequences, and likely a surprising number would choose Jacob.

But, SM the author never really has to make any choice, as she will always have both of them. I do think she will always have a very special place in her heart for Edward, the original superstar of her meadow dream. Jacob represents something else for her. I would be willing to bet she dove much, much further into Edward's head than any other character. She loved Edward's character, but he was causing her problems, and I think she was grateful to Jacob's character for coming into the story and helping resolve those problems. SM states in her interview from the guide that she was in Edward's head the entire time she was writing New Moon. Dang! That was a very dark place to be. I can see why Jacob's character was very attractive to her and gave her a freedom that she couldn't experience with Edward. My own theory is that a lot of the anger that is instilled in Jacob's character reflects SM's frustrations with Edward and the roadblocks his character keeps throwing down in SM's path. Hey, she is trying to get this story out, and you just END UP AND LEAVE! You are so going to get it.

If SM ever does continue the story of Jacob and Nessie, I expect she will have a lot more fun with Edward and Bella. Whatever initial draft she sketches out I would be willing to bet that E&B's role would become far more prominent by the time she actually wrote it down. As much fun as she had with Jacob, I think she would have a bigger blast with the new, unshackled, confident, bedroom-busting Edward.

P.S. If Stephenie could actually meet one of her characters and sit down and talk with them for an hour, who do you think she would choose, Edward or Jacob? I think she would love to talk to Jacob, but she would never be able to live with turning down a chance to meet Edward. Yeah, I think it would have to be Edward. Absolutely. I don't know what that proves, if anything, I'm just rambling here. But I think her heart would be going THUMP, THUMP, THUMP.
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby Tornado » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:27 pm

I pretty much agree with that Corona. I think she loves them both on a different level. And I think all of us would definitely have pause for thought if we were really given Bella's choice.

Also, she could have left Bella with Jake. She could have done that. She did not. And she has said that the last two pages of BD, with Bella and Edward declaring their undying love for each other, were the most satisfying in the whole saga. That has to say something.

I think also that we've got to remember that there are far more Team Edward fans than Team Jacob, so she probably feels the need to defend Jacob more, whereas many Team Edward fans run around saying, "He's so perfect!", so she spends a lot of time pointing out that he does have some faults. I think this can sometimes come across as denigrating Edward while lauding Jacob, whereas she is probably just reacting to the particular types of conversations she usually has with fans.
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby Jazz Girl » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:51 pm

Tornado wrote:Also, she could have left Bella with Jake. She could have done that. She did not. And she has said that the last two pages of BD, with Bella and Edward declaring their undying love for each other, were the most satisfying in the whole saga. That has to say something.



Honestly, I don't think she could have. The original story barely even included Jacob. He was a means to an end of revealing who and what the Cullens were to Bella and then he pretty much disappears. It was only after Little Brown asked her to expand the story that Jacob's character took on more depth and significance. That is the one thing she has always maintained; that she always knew Edward&Bella were fated to be together. She just needed Jacob to represent an alternate path, a path that her background and history is much more amenable to. So, as she expanded the story and was really forced to acknowledge and deal with those aspects of Edward's life and personality that conflicted with her own beliefs and preferences, she started to realize and acknowledge that she wouldn't have made the choice Bella did. But, she still could not change THEIR story. So, what we end up with is an amalgamation, an odd mixture of mostly THEM, but some of her as well. So, not only (when she has the opportunity to express it indirectly) do we hear comments that support the idea that she prefers Jacob to Edward, we see it also, as in the examples that we talked about within the text (comments Jacob is allowed to make, actions that go unatoned, etc).
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby Tornado » Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:48 am

Yes, but what I am saying is that if she turned into Team Jacob during the course of the books, as some people seem to think, I'm sure she could have provided a different ending if she really liked Jacob better. We know that she was under pressure at one stage to only write three books instead of four. It could have provided a nice, neat ending to book three to have her go off with Jacob and have puppies instead.

So, as she expanded the story and was really forced to acknowledge and deal with those aspects of Edward's life and personality that conflicted with her own beliefs and preferences, she started to realize and acknowledge that she wouldn't have made the choice Bella did.


Yes, but she's not Bella. She has said that. She hasn't got Bella's bravery. And what in Edward's life conflicts with her beliefs?

So, not only (when she has the opportunity to express it indirectly) do we hear comments that support the idea that she prefers Jacob to Edward, we see it also, as in the examples that we talked about within the text (comments Jacob is allowed to make, actions that go unatoned, etc).


Can you quote me some examples please?
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby Esme echo » Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:30 am

I reviewed some of my archived interviews with Stephenie and found these two quotes from the TwilightMOMS site (12/28/2007) which seem pertinent:

Steph: I'm very jealous of all of you who found Edwards and Jacobs. People often ask me if my inspiration for Edward comes from my husband, and I don't even bother trying to keep a straight face anymore. . . .
I think one of the most frustrating things about my confident, self-assured husband is that he is not in the least bit threatened by my devotion to Edward and Jacob, though I have told him many times that if either one of them showed up at the door, I would leave without looking back. Pancho just grins and says, "You do that, Steph." Just because they're fictional doesn't mean he should be so danged sure of himself! Gah! Men.

And later in the interview . . .
Steph: I do worry a lot about my readers. The lists of "things that will cause me to burn Breaking Dawn" really upset me. I want everyone to love what happens. But honestly, it doesn't affect the writing. It's just a painful after fact. I've known the end of this story since 2003, long before anyone had chimed in on what they would like to see happen. I can't change it--to me, it's more like history than fiction. This is simply how it went down.
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby Jazz Girl » Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:59 pm

Tornado wrote:Yes, but what I am saying is that if she turned into Team Jacob during the course of the books, as some people seem to think, I'm sure she could have provided a different ending if she really liked Jacob better. We know that she was under pressure at one stage to only write three books instead of four. It could have provided a nice, neat ending to book three to have her go off with Jacob and have puppies instead.


As far as I know (December, Alphie,Pel, please correct me if I'm wrong, as I don't have the sources you do *sadpanda*), Stephenie was never pressured to shorten The Saga, only to lengthen it, expand it. It was originally written as two novels; Twilight & Forever Dawn. After the success of Twilight, Little Brown essentially begged her to expand the series into four novels total. As EsmeEcho so helpfully pointed out, there's no way she could just change it. Stephenie has always maintained that she is essentially a biographer for Edward& Bella. It is their story she is telling. The ending was already written. In the expansion, she had to fill in the gaps, go into more detail, but she could not just change the reality of the story. That is where she had the opening to express a little bit of herself in the characters and story.

Tornado wrote:
So, as she expanded the story and was really forced to acknowledge and deal with those aspects of Edward's life and personality that conflicted with her own beliefs and preferences, she started to realize and acknowledge that she wouldn't have made the choice Bella did.


Yes, but she's not Bella. She has said that. She hasn't got Bella's bravery. And what in Edward's life conflicts with her beliefs
So, not only (when she has the opportunity to express it indirectly) do we hear comments that support the idea that she prefers Jacob to Edward, we see it also, as in the examples that we talked about within the text (comments Jacob is allowed to make, actions that go unatoned, etc).

Can you quote me some examples please?


First, let me say that this is all my opinion, how I've seen and interpreted passages and interviews and other information sources. No, Stephenie is not Bella. But, in telling their story, they are her characters. She is their creator. So, in as much as she sees herself as biographer telling their story, she also has to assume some responsibility for who and what they are. She is answerable for it. It's kind of the ultimate dilemma for an author who writes the way she does. The characters she created and loves, rather like our children, may say, do or believe things that she does not believe herself. Primarily, I look at the beliefs she follows as a member of the Mormon Church. She's always maintained that she holds her spiritual beliefs very close. So, those things that might conflict with her spiritual beliefs, she has to reconcile accepting as a part of her characters. In part, I think that is where Jacob really originated. His character allows her to have a source of opposition to those things that might conflict with her personal beliefs, though he's not the only one.

The overarching conflict within the love story is a perfect example. For Bella & Edward to be together, they both have to essentially choose for her to die. She has to willingly give up her human life and Edward has to willingly and intentionally take it from her. This conflicts with most Judeo-Christian belief systems, include the Latter Day Saints. In my opinion, this is why Bella is changed the way she is. Rather than both partners choosing to accept that the only way they can be together is for her to be changed, and willingly choosing that love and future together, it is done as a "last resort", a no-other-option scenario where it is (as with all of the other Cullens) the only way to save her.

If you would like direct quotes from the books, there are so many that reflect, in my mind, Stephenie's preference for Jacob as seen in the latitude he gets to express his bile. The one that always sticks out in my mind is when Jacob tells her he would prefer her to truly be dead than be a vampire. Jacob is never made to acknowledge the hatred and jealousy and inflicted pain of that remark, ever. But, the overall attitude he is never forced to answer for pervades the novels. Jacob is allowed to insult, degrade and torture Edward without ever having to answer for it; his thoughts in the parking lot after the trip to Florida, every reference he makes to Edward or the Cullens as ticks, leaches, bloodsuckers, etc, threatening Edward's life at the wedding, and on and on. But, the few times Edward's thoughts or words are anything other than completely civil, Bella immediately takes him to task about it, dismissing altogether the rivalry that she herself creates and essentially forbidding Edward to experience the emotions that she causes in him.
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