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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby suzzeeQ » Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:11 pm

May I ask why? I'm very much interested in a different perspective on it, if you're willing?



Let me start off by stating that I am Team Jacob. I never wanted Bella and Jacob to be a couple (I knew it was never going to happen) but I like him much more than I like Edward.

I also like my female protagonists to be strong and independent, and IMO, Bella is not.

It's difficult to stand up to people we love. In that scene she did; she had some back bone. She was upset with Edward because he lied about something she deemed important and want to blow off some steam by riding with her friend who she hadn't seen in months. That's it. Edward screwed up, she got mad. She forgave him and all was well. Couples argue. I don't think it's as big of a deal as everyone makes it out to be.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby Tornado » Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:25 pm

I do understand your point, Suzee. When I read Bella's reaction in the book, I thought she should have at least told him that he shouldn't have lied to her (although I think he got enough from her reaction to recognise that it was a bad idea). However, it doesn't mitigate such a strong reaction as riding off with his rival in front of their friends. This is a hearty slap in the face, and is worthy of an apology from her. Perhaps if they had included each of them apologising for what they'd done, it might have been okay, but as I said earlier, all the Bella/Edward fights in Eclipse the movie were left largely unresolved.

I always thought Bella showed strength and independence in the books. She looked after her mother in a parent-like relationship for years, which shows considerable strength for someone so young. She chooses to have a relationship with a vampire. She ditches Alice and Jasper to find James when she knows that the action will likely cost her her life, and in spite of the fact that she knows that this will hurt Edward (showing both strength and independence). In the school scene in Eclipse the book she refuses to follow Edward's suggestion that she stay in the car, and she does sneak away to see Jake, she just doesn't do it when Edward is around, a sign that she prefers his company overall than that she is dependent on him, although they are certainly dependent on each other to a certain extent, but it is more co-dependency than one sided.

It's not surprising that Bella does have to look weak and dependent to a certain extent early on. But that's because she's a human trying to survive in a world where she is the weakest link. This is why the events of BD are so important - she moves from being the weakest link to the strongest. I think bringing things like this in too early in the movies lessens the significance of that change. When she saves everyone at the end of BD part 2, it won't have as much significance in the movie, because she's been doing that all the way along anyway. So the significance of the change will be lost on the movie-going audience.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby suzzeeQ » Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:26 pm

There are plenty of instances where Bella hasn't been strong. The big one that comes to my mind is when Edward left. She basically fell into a coma for four months because her boyfriend left town, ignoring her friends and family who care about her. Then she started to put her life in danger just so she could hear the ghost of his voice in her head. Then when he came back she let him off the hook scott free. I would have at least put him on probation or something.

I think ultimately people see what they want to see. People want to see Bella as a strong person so they do, and vice versa.

Bell does end up becoming a strong link but she has to die and develop super powers to do it.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby Tornado » Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:46 pm

I agree that we all see what we want to see.

Bella is a strong person in the normal world. But she's not playing in the normal world, and there she is a weak link. But that doesn't equate to her being weak overall. And even in the real world everyone has their weak moments.

It's certainly true that she was in a coma-like state for months, but SM gives the impression that that is because of the strength of Edward and Bella's love, not because she is weak. Edward is a strong character, and yet he compliments her when he returns, saying that she made more of an effort while they were separated than he did, by at least trying to go about her daily life. In this instance, she shows greater strength than him.

Yes, she welcomes him back, but that is because of the realisation of the depth of their love, the real reason for his departure, and the recognition of the depth of his feelings for her, rather than weakness. I consider this another sign of her strength. She didn't need to hold him at arm's length, worried about his commitment, until she was sure. Her epiphany made her recognise the truth, and once she understood, she knew there was no need for that. And what other reason would she have for holding him at arm's length when he first came back? As some kind of punishment? Would that be a sign of strength?
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby Jazz Girl » Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:46 am

suzzeeQ wrote:
May I ask why? I'm very much interested in a different perspective on it, if you're willing?



Let me start off by stating that I am Team Jacob. I never wanted Bella and Jacob to be a couple (I knew it was never going to happen) but I like him much more than I like Edward.

I also like my female protagonists to be strong and independent, and IMO, Bella is not.

It's difficult to stand up to people we love. In that scene she did; she had some back bone. She was upset with Edward because he lied about something she deemed important and want to blow off some steam by riding with her friend who she hadn't seen in months. That's it. Edward screwed up, she got mad. She forgave him and all was well. Couples argue. I don't think it's as big of a deal as everyone makes it out to be.


SuzzeeQ~ Thank you for sharing your point of view. While I certainly agree with everything Tornado said above, I also have another counterpoint. In my discussions about that scene, even several people who have no history with the book all said the same thing; MR's idea backfired because it DIDN'T make Bella look strong or independent, it made her look selfish and immature. She says over and over that Edward is her love and her life, that he will always be the one she chooses (the confrontation at the end of NM. "Don't make me choose. Because it will be him, Jake. It'll always be him. It's always been him."), that, regardless of the sacrifices and everything else, he will always be what she wants. And yet, the moment that something that frustrates her or bothers her happens, she goes running off. And not just with anyone. She runs off with the one person that she absolutely knows warrants the strongest reaction from her life and love. And remember, yes, Edward was jealous of Jacob. But, his larger issue (however invalid)with Jacob was always the fact that he was a risk to Bella. In essence, she did to Edward exactly what he did to her; in stead of talking about the issue and dealing with it, she ran away. But, she played one-up, immediately putting Edward in the position of not only knowing he couldn't do anything to stop her, but also in the position of knowing she was (in his mind) in danger and he couldn't do a thing about it. In essence, she hurt Edward deliberately by doing the one thing she knew would wound him most. Those are not the actions of a person who loves someone, let alone someone who is ready to be a partner to that person for the rest of eternity.

That was a perspective I had never even thought of. When my girlfriend pointed it out to me, it definitely led to much deeper discussions about the portrayal of the love between Edward& Bella in the book, and Edward&Bella in the movies. While I have always felt the connection between Edward&Bella has been present in the films, I have always questioned if they presented the nature of the connection appropriately. This scene more than any other was one of the reasons why. The love and connection between Edward&Bella in the novels is immediate and intense. Because of all of the challenges facing them, they are both forced to grow and to openly make decisions to be together. Their love and connection grows from one of attraction and fascination to one of devotion and partnership. In essence, their love matures.

When you love someone that much, want to spend your life with someone, be their partner, face the good, the bad and the typical everyday, you can't abide seeing that person hurt and you never want to be the source of pain for that person. It doesn't mean that you let the other person walk over your feelings or that you don't call them out when they've done something wrong. But, it does mean that you do it in a way that reinforces the connection you have, not that destroys it. In that scene, Bella essentially threw everything that she'd ever said about loving Edward and wanting to be with him no matter the cost right back in his face. The saddest thing is that a few lines of dialogue could have saved it, turned it from a scene showing Bella's immaturity to a scene showing Bella's strength. An explanation, an acknowledgement, any kind of indication that Bella knew Edward's anxiety but felt she had to make things right with Jake... would have made all the difference. But, from the moment she turns her back on Edward's feelings(which is essentially what she does when she just walks away when he says he doesn't trust Jake), she shows blatant disregard for him, and that's not love or strength.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby Tornado » Fri Jul 01, 2011 6:01 pm

Very good post, Jazz girl! :clap:

I will add though, that I thought the connection between Edward and Bella was displayed well in the movies up until Eclipse. In fact, the motorcycle scene was quite a jolt for that reason "She's doing what??" After all she had said about it being Edward and all she'd done in wanting to be with him up to that point, to go off with Jake like that only made sense if she was behaving petulantly in a petty reaction to Edward lying to her. While he should have been honest with her, to go off with Jacob like that was childish, at best, and hardly likely to resolve things.

A strong response (and a loving one) would have been to stay and discuss it with Edward, making him aware that lying like that, for whatever reason, was not appropriate, and seeking a promise from him that he would be honest with her in future, no matter how much the truth might frighten her. This would have also showed Bella's maturity in dealing with the man she loves in a sensitive manner, and also showed that she was an individual who needed to be respected.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby corona » Tue Jul 05, 2011 5:12 pm

You know, I never really had a problem with Edward getting Bella to go to Florida. The only reason he had to throw in some manipulation was because Bella didn't want to upset Charlie. I sympathized with Charlie, and his attitude towards Edward was completely understandable, but at some point if he couldn't let go of his grudge he needed to sit down with Edward and have a talk. And Bella was an adult; without Charlie's grudge to consider, she would likely have agreed to go when Edward first showed her the tickets, which were about to expire.

The closest Edward came to outright lying was when responding to Bella's question about Alice's vision at school, but he said "She’s been seeing Jasper in a strange place...". That's a classic syntax dodge (Politics 101), but Bella didn't pick up on it.

And I don't think Bella was angry with him once she found out the truth. She only showed anger towards Jacob when he purposely brought up memories of Bella in the forest and then when he goaded her over Edward's protectiveness. Other than that she was overwhelmed with the terror of Victoria coming back.

And isn't this the second time Jacob has come to remind Edward about the treaty? That's like asking Colonel Sanders if he knows anything about chicken.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby Jazz Girl » Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:21 pm

I never took issue with Edward taking Bella to Florida, either. Edward's protective nature always made a lot of sense to me. Regardless of whether or not Bella perceived the danger around her, the reality is that it was very real. And, while I am always in full support of complete honesty between partners, Bella's self-sacrificial nature made it very difficult for Edward to just say to Bella, "Alice has seen Victoria coming and we need to leave to allow the family to deal with it." Bella would never have gone along with it. It would have been the argument about the battle that much sooner, with Bella saying she couldn't leave, she needed to help, or planning something similar to her plan to meet the army in Seattle to prevent the battle. I always wondered what Alice's full vision was because of Edward's immediate circumnavigation of the truth. In all honesty, I always wondered if maybe she saw Bella trying to pull something like that if Edward told her and he, therefore, decided to go the fastest route to get her out of Dodge. While I will always maintain he should have been honest with her, at least telling her the whole story once they were gone, I can understand why he did what he did.

As for Bella's anger, I always find it just a little irritating that many folks completely gloss over what truly made Bella angry that morning. I'm also rather pissed that they skipped over that in the film. Convenient, don't you think?
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby Tornado » Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:39 pm

I did hear that they originally did have that in the film, but it was too difficult to portray successfully in a visual format, so they cut it. It does get a little tricky. Even showing a flashback to Bella's state in NM would no not have communicated fully what Jake was doing, and then he would have had to explain it later, as he did in the book, and that just leads to lots of exposition, which movie-makers try to avoid as much as possible, because it slows the pace of the film down. So I don't think there was an agenda in not including that.

I was always a little upset at Edward for not being honest with Bella. I'm sure she would have wanted to stay, and I think he was just trying to avoid the inevitable argument, and the possibility that Bella might try to deliberately put herself in danger so that they could catch Victoria (as you said, pretty much what happened later on). Whatever the reasoning, it would have been better to level with her and get everything sorted out, rather than do something that would create a situation later on. With the wolves around, there was always a chance Bella would find out about it.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby Fighting fate » Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:47 pm

I think the way they tried, but in my opinion failed, to show that Bella wasn't going with Jake to simply spite Edward in the movie was when she said something along the lines of "We can talk about this later" to Edward, then she goes right along to accusing Jake of ignoring her phone calls and many attempts at communication. I think they were trying to allude to the fact that Bella was gonna sit Edward down at some point and hash out the whole lying incident, and that we(the viewers) just weren't going to see it. She also scolds Jacob for grinning at the fact for her ditching Edward for him. I think they try to further this when Bella was in Jake's garage and she hints that she will be changed after graduation and he makes the whole "You'd be better off dead" comment, then she says "Edward was right, I shouldn't have come" insinuating that she holds no ill feelings towards Edward and even agrees with him after hearing Jake's harsh words. I'm not sure if this was their goal or not, but if it was, at the end of the day Bella still comes off as being childish and petulant, just seeking to hurt Edward as punishment for lying, but after watching the movie many times I started seeing these things and thinking this was their way of trying. Or maybe I was just trying to find ANYTHING redeeming about Bella's actions.
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