Edward Cullen bringing sexy back since 1901 -- Team Edward#3

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Re: Edward Cullen bringing sexy back since 1901 -- Team Edwa

Postby Jazz Girl » Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:46 pm

Tornado wrote:Yes, when it's what we want, we tend to see everything as rosy, and the alternatives as the things that will result in the most misery.


And I think that was always such a point of contention for me. All of Jacob's disapproval, manipulations, guilt-trips, hurtfulness and everything else was based on the fact that he didn't agree with Bella's choice. Say what you like about his drive to, quote-unquote, save her life. That's never a justification that I totally accepted because, regardless of one's feelings about vampire life, the bottom line is she wasn't losing her life. She was transitioning to a life with which Jacob did not agree. He didn't like what she wanted to become and it didn't fit with what he wanted. So, he decided that he wasn't going to let it happen. He could never understand why Bella made the choice she did, never tried to understand. So, he dismissed it and did everything he could to prevent it, despite every protest by Bella. It frustrates me to no end when people blame Edward, constantly degrade him for making a unilateral decision to leave in New Moon, when his goal was to save Bella's life. But, somehow, Jacob's actions are excuseable for exactly the same reason?
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Re: Edward Cullen bringing sexy back since 1901 -- Team Edwa

Postby ♥midnight_sun♥ » Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:51 pm

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Re: Edward Cullen bringing sexy back since 1901 -- Team Edwa

Postby 21Twilight21 » Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:51 pm

Jazz Girl wrote:
Tornado wrote:Yes, when it's what we want, we tend to see everything as rosy, and the alternatives as the things that will result in the most misery.


And I think that was always such a point of contention for me. All of Jacob's disapproval, manipulations, guilt-trips, hurtfulness and everything else was based on the fact that he didn't agree with Bella's choice. Say what you like about his drive to, quote-unquote, save her life. That's never a justification that I totally accepted because, regardless of one's feelings about vampire life, the bottom line is she wasn't losing her life. She was transitioning to a life with which Jacob did not agree. He didn't like what she wanted to become and it didn't fit with what he wanted. So, he decided that he wasn't going to let it happen. He could never understand why Bella made the choice she did, never tried to understand. So, he dismissed it and did everything he could to prevent it, despite every protest by Bella. It frustrates me to no end when people blame Edward, constantly degrade him for making a unilateral decision to leave in New Moon, when his goal was to save Bella's life. But, somehow, Jacob's actions are excuseable for exactly the same reason?


I love what you said in this post! You told the truth about the whole situation perfectly! :clap: Lol!
Jacob never tried to understand it! He only believed what he thought was right!
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Re: Edward Cullen bringing sexy back since 1901 -- Team Edwa

Postby Tornado » Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:38 pm

Jazz Girl wrote:And I think that was always such a point of contention for me. All of Jacob's disapproval, manipulations, guilt-trips, hurtfulness and everything else was based on the fact that he didn't agree with Bella's choice. Say what you like about his drive to, quote-unquote, save her life. That's never a justification that I totally accepted because, regardless of one's feelings about vampire life, the bottom line is she wasn't losing her life. She was transitioning to a life with which Jacob did not agree. He didn't like what she wanted to become and it didn't fit with what he wanted. So, he decided that he wasn't going to let it happen. He could never understand why Bella made the choice she did, never tried to understand. So, he dismissed it and did everything he could to prevent it, despite every protest by Bella. It frustrates me to no end when people blame Edward, constantly degrade him for making a unilateral decision to leave in New Moon, when his goal was to save Bella's life. But, somehow, Jacob's actions are excuseable for exactly the same reason?


I think there's a little more to it than that. Remember, even Edward doesn't want it for her. It's not exactly an ideal kind of life. Edward himself came close to killing Bella. I think sometimes we forget just how close to the wire it was. And now that she's a vampire, no matter how hard she tries, Bella may kill someone one day. Is being with Edward forever really worth that risk? She thinks so, and I believe she's strong enough to keep from killing people, but she will always have that desire to kill in the back of her mind.

So she was choosing to become a creature that has a natural drive to kill human beings. It wasn't like it was just a lifestyle choice that meant Jacob wasn't going to be able to relate to her as easily anymore. It was going to turn her into something that he and his pack were sworn to kill in order to protect humans from them. Although the Cullens are civilised, they do sometime make mistakes. If we look at the reality of the situation, it is a big deal. People's lives are at stake. There is a justifiable reason, beyond saving her from what he considers a death, or even getting her for himself, in making her think twice about it.
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Re: Edward Cullen bringing sexy back since 1901 -- Team Edwa

Postby Jazz Girl » Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:24 am

I agree. I do simplify the situation a lot. There is more to her choice to be changed than just choosing a different way of life. I can look at it from the outside with a more detailed understanding. But, when looking at Jacob's opposition, I can also only go on what Jacob said or thought. The information that we have, through out the entire saga, shows Jacob considering only his own hatred for vampires, the fact that she would be one of them beyond his reach, the fact that it would make her his natural enemy and he would be (in his mind) obligated to kill her, and the fact that she would be choosing Edward and his disgusting, unnatural, death-life over him. Jacob never once considered the possible impact on Bella herself, nor on anyone else. There isn't ever a time when he says, "you could kill someone Bella, you'll want to kill people." He doesn't ever say to her, "consider the consequences if you hurt someone." He only ever shows any kind of focus on his own thoughts and feelings. How hurt he'll be. What he will lose. What he wants and cannot have. In fact, he is the person who puts her most at risk of failing, and failing in the most painful way possible, when he brings not just anyone but HER FATHER to the house and sits him right in front of her.

Absolutely, Edward does not want her to be changed. But, his opposition is based on his true understanding of what her life will be, not his judgements based on mistrust, hatred and personal bias. He is the first person to say to her that the risk is too great, that she could end up hurting herself or someone else, that there is pain and risk to her that she doesn't understand. It is Edward who has to point out to Jacob, "and what if she fails? what about her pain?"

It is certainly true that Bella's absolute faith in Edward and in the rest of the family to keep her from failing is what allows her walk into the change a bit ... I don't know if naively is quite the word, but at least somewhat ignoring those risks because she knows that Edward won't let her fail. Her faith in Edward was always much stronger than his own faith in himself. Perhaps I, too, am able to simplify her choice, and therefore my feelings towards Jacob in regards to it, because I share that faith? And, in the end, she turned out to be right.
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Re: Edward Cullen bringing sexy back since 1901 -- Team Edwa

Postby corona » Wed Jul 13, 2011 1:06 pm

When the Cullens first ran across the wolves, it was Carlisle that convinced Ephraim to have a truce. The wolves were outnumbered 5 to 3. Presumably, Edward provided a great deal of assistance to Carlisle during that negotiation. If those discussions had broken down and turned into a fight there is a very good chance that the shape-shifting genes would have been wiped out. In other words, Jacob and the entire wolfpack owe their very existence to the benevolence of the Cullens.

After the events in EC, it is clear that Sam and other members of the wolfpack have a better understanding of the Cullens. Billy and Sue and Seth's attendance at the wedding indicate a tacit agreement to respect Bella's choice, and this is confirmed later by Sam when the entire wolfpack believe she is undergoing her transformation. Everyone respects Bella's choice except Jacob, who rescinds the acceptance that he granted Bella at the end of EC for no apparent reason other than that he knows Bella has consummated her marriage to Edward in her human flesh. Sam's concern is for his wolfpack and wants to keep the spirit of the treaty. Jacob wants to punish the Cullens for technically violating it, even though he has violated it himself and apparently didn't have an issue when an exception was granted to Carlisle for coming over and patching him up. He then proceeds to violate the treaty, again, by entering Cullen territory with murderous intent on a suspicion that the Cullens violated the treaty, which they hadn't.

As Jazz Girl states, this is about her transformation from a human life to a vampire life, not about her death. It is absolutely true that the Quileutes who made the truce didn't see any difference between killing a human and changing them, but I think that was also because they never had any reason to trust any vampire before. Their beliefs were entirely rational, but Sam's growing understanding of the Cullens led him to accept that the current situation was entirely unique and that the Cullens had always kept their word. This was an informed choice by Bella, not something forced upon her, and she and Edward are married and love each other. The Cullens have proven that they are not monsters, and they are certainly not "dead".

Jacob's view had apparently changed by the end of EC too, even going so far as to tell Bella he might still want to hook up with her after her change if she is willing. He no longer believes himself that becoming a vampire is a fate on par with death, or something even worse. That belief, however, is supposed to be the motivation for his manipulations in EC, the essence of the "free pass" that is given to him. And doesn't his acceptance of Bella's choice in EC and his subsequent actions in BD amount to tearing up that free pass?
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Edward Cullen bringing sexy back since 1901 -- Team Edwa

Postby edwardc494 » Wed Jul 13, 2011 4:21 pm

Hey Guys,

I'm not sure where else to post this because my account won't let me start new topics, but I found this song written by a 14 year old girl and it's really good!!! It's inspired by the scene of Edward and Bella's wedding. Amazingly though, it only has about 200 views. Let me know what you guys think!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S69t6AIXme8
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Re: Edward Cullen bringing sexy back since 1901 -- Team Edwa

Postby Tornado » Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:16 pm

Jazz Girl wrote:He only ever shows any kind of focus on his own thoughts and feelings. How hurt he'll be. What he will lose. What he wants and cannot have. In fact, he is the person who puts her most at risk of failing, and failing in the most painful way possible, when he brings not just anyone but HER FATHER to the house and sits him right in front of her.


Yeah, I found that part incredibly ironic. "Hey Jacob, weren't you just telling off Edward a few pages ago, saying that she shouldn't be having any contact with Charlie once she's a vampire? Why the change?" 'Cause it suits him, that's why! No, that's probably being a bit too cynical (although still correct). He'd seen enough to think Bella could resist to some extent. However, there's no doubt he should have waited, and trusted that Bella would be thinking about the effect separation from Renesmee would have on him (which we know she was). Why the hell can't that boy ever trust anyone?

corona wrote:He then proceeds to violate the treaty, again, by entering Cullen territory with murderous intent on a suspicion that the Cullens violated the treaty, which they hadn't.


I often wonder what would have happened if he'd got there and seen Bella as a vampire. He does acknowledge later that Seth was right in saying it wasn't a fight he was ready for. I think that, if the Cullens had stayed calm, and Bella herself had appealed to him, he probably would have just turned around and run away. Edward wouldn't have been provoked into a fight (it would have hurt Bella), so I can see him leaving.

corona wrote:And doesn't his acceptance of Bella's choice in EC and his subsequent actions in BD amount to tearing up that free pass?


I think that was more just trying to cope with the jealousy factor. Saying to Bella, in what may be their last talk together, that he would accept her as a vampire, is one thing. Coping with the fact that she's gone through with marriage to Edward and even had sex with him, is another. Not that it excuses his behaviour. But at least when the rubber hit the road, and it came down to the possibility of really fighting with the Cullens, he can't do it. Even though Bella's safety is the instigator, he realises that they're not the enemy (or at least finally acknowledges it) and fights with them, instead of against them.
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Re: Edward Cullen bringing sexy back since 1901 -- Team Edwa

Postby 21Twilight21 » Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:29 am

edwardc494 wrote:Hey Guys,

I'm not sure where else to post this because my account won't let me start new topics, but I found this song written by a 14 year old girl and it's really good!!! It's inspired by the scene of Edward and Bella's wedding. Amazingly though, it only has about 200 views. Let me know what you guys think!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S69t6AIXme8


We aren't allowed to start new topics... only the moderators are allowed to create topics. You can post anywhere you want as long as you meet the standards (specific age groups, etc.), you are following the rules, and your post is related to the topic.
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Re: Edward Cullen bringing sexy back since 1901 -- Team Edwa

Postby Jazz Girl » Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:22 pm

Tornado wrote:
Jazz Girl wrote:He only ever shows any kind of focus on his own thoughts and feelings. How hurt he'll be. What he will lose. What he wants and cannot have. In fact, he is the person who puts her most at risk of failing, and failing in the most painful way possible, when he brings not just anyone but HER FATHER to the house and sits him right in front of her.


Yeah, I found that part incredibly ironic. "Hey Jacob, weren't you just telling off Edward a few pages ago, saying that she shouldn't be having any contact with Charlie once she's a vampire? Why the change?" 'Cause it suits him, that's why! No, that's probably being a bit too cynical (although still correct). He'd seen enough to think Bella could resist to some extent. However, there's no doubt he should have waited, and trusted that Bella would be thinking about the effect separation from Renesmee would have on him (which we know she was). Why the hell can't that boy ever trust anyone?


For me, it went beyond irony to utter hypocrisy, frankly. Not a chapter previous, Jacob felt completely justified in physically coming between Bella and her daughter, despite the fact that there were a half dozen other individuals present, not the least of which was her husband and NESS' FATHER. He could barely accept being physically separated from Ness because he was so concerned that Bella couldn't control herself. He believed she was a danger to Ness. He completely overstepped his place and usurped the rightful place of much more important people (relative to that relationship dynamic) because it was what made him most comfortable. Edward, NESS' FATHER, reassures him, all of them, that he knows she can meet their daughter, be with her, without any problem. He has complete confidence based on what he's seen her do. And yet, Jacob refuses to allow it to happen, interferes at every turn, despite knowing that every one of the Cullens, particularly Edward, would do everything necessary to protect Ness AND Bella. And yet, he feels completely justified in bringing Charlie to the house with no (alright very little) warning, no time to prepare Bella to be around a human, based only on her ability to be close to her own daughter who is a vampire hybrid, but still knowing that she was tempted by human scents on her first hunt. But, as Edward so deftly points out, "that's no longer {his} concern anymore, is it?" It's what Edward has always seen but never forced the issue on. Jacob only sees what he wants to see and only concerns himself with what matters to him. If something conflicts with what he wants, he does anything possible to turn the outcome his direction, no matter who he hurts in the process.
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