Edward Cullen bringing sexy back since 1901 -- Team Edward#3

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Re: Edward Cullen bringing sexy back since 1901 -- Team Edwa

Postby Tornado » Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:18 pm

Good point. He is unnecessarily pushy at that stage, and I don't think his imprinting things is a good enough excuse for his insensitive behaviour. But then, while Jake was sensitive prior to beginning to phase, he seems to have lost that capacity. He was definitely a nicer person before he became a werewolf. While it would certainly have been a difficult thing to deal with (becoming a werewolf, that is), that doesn't excuse such poor behaviour.
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Re: Edward Cullen bringing sexy back since 1901 -- Team Edwa

Postby corona » Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:59 am

I went back to read the Charlie scene, and I was surprised to see that Edward was actually much angrier than I remember. I forgot about that line where Edward asks Jacob to leave, and says it very coldly. He comes across as if he is really fed up with Jacob and has just had enough. Something that never set right with me was Jacob babbling on about how special and wonderful Nessie was in front of Charlie. I kept expecting Charlie to pick up on it and ask Jacob just exactly what his interest in Nessie was.

As far as the Nessie and Bella scene, wouldn't Edward and Jacob and the Cullens have discussed multiple scenarios during those first three days? All of the Cullens would have had a good read on just how strong and appealing Nessie's smell was and that it was easier to resist than that of a human. The choreography of the scene shows very good planning, and of course everything works out better than expected, but wouldn't the possibility of a best-case scenario be raised? Was Jacob warned beforehand not to overdo it in case Bella was okay, or was it not even brought up because no one could actually conceive that Jacob would interfere with Bella holding Nessie?

Jacob's best defense was that the imprinting experience was so overwhelming that he is still lost in the reverie three days later and isn't completely aware that he is interfering so grossly with the reunion between Bella and Nessie. It's not an argument I ascribed to, but the BD text does allow some room for this. Is this Jacob doing this, or is this a symptom of the imprinting? I always blamed Jacob, even though I had hoped for something different from him.

The OIG seems to lay that argument to rest in Sam and Emily's story. At the very moment of Sam's imprinting on Emily, he still has the presence of mind to realize that Leah is still there, and so he must leave. Sam is never so overwhelmed that he blocks everyone else out. So, that is simply pure Jacob there in that scene. He isn't being overwhelmed by the forces of imprinting, he is simply lost in himself.

P.S. I know this is piling on, but it's hard to resist... :twisted: The Charlie scene reminds me of that tent scene where Jacob asks Edward to leave Bella again. He doesn't seem to mind too much what kind of pain Bella has to go through as long as he can benefit from it. I know that is harsh, but there it is.

P.P.S. Isn't that imprinting scene virtually a mirror image of Edward's biology class scene? And yet, Edward succeeded in resisting the temptation to kill, but Jacob failed, in fact he didn't even resist, and was only saved by the miracle of imprinting. That's what is incomprehensible to me, that such an event wouldn't have an effect on Jacob. Edward never forgot that his first instinct with Bella was to kill her, but for Jacob there doesn't appear to be any insights gained, no introspection, and therefore no humility. I wonder if Edward had ever caught Jacob's intention to kill Renesmee. Maybe he should bring it up one day, and then ask Jacob why he has never told Nessie, that she has a right to know, ala Eclipse and the motorcycle scene.
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Re: Edward Cullen bringing sexy back since 1901 -- Team Edwa

Postby Tornado » Fri Jul 15, 2011 5:41 pm

corona wrote:P.P.S. Isn't that imprinting scene virtually a mirror image of Edward's biology class scene? And yet, Edward succeeded in resisting the temptation to kill, but Jacob failed, in fact he didn't even resist, and was only saved by the miracle of imprinting. That's what is incomprehensible to me, that such an event wouldn't have an effect on Jacob. Edward never forgot that his first instinct with Bella was to kill her, but for Jacob there doesn't appear to be any insights gained, no introspection, and therefore no humility. I wonder if Edward had ever caught Jacob's intention to kill Renesmee. Maybe he should bring it up one day, and then ask Jacob why he has never told Nessie, that she has a right to know, ala Eclipse and the motorcycle scene.


I don't really see that it's a mirror of the biology scene. Edward wants to kill Bella because her scent is overwhelming, whereas Jacob stalks Renesmee with deliberately murderous intent. I think that it is understandable to some extent: as far as he is concerned, this is a creature that has not only killed a human, but killed the woman he loved, and he is in pain, and he is not thinking rationally (pain does that to you). Besides, it's pretty clear from how SM wrote that scene that it's the desire to imprint that is dragging him towards Renesmee, rather than the desire to kill. He just doesn't understand that until he experiences it, so ascribes a different emotion to the desire, based on what he is feeling at the time.

When it comes to the fact that Jacob considered killing Renesmee, you have to remember that Edward wanted to kill Nessie too. And not just Edward, but Alice and Carlisle were all for terminating the pregnancy. In fact, until he read her thoughts, Edward hated Renesmee more than Jacob (because "it" was hurting Bella, and he had no inkling that "it" loved Bella, whereas at least he knew Jacob did care about Bella).
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Re: Edward Cullen bringing sexy back since 1901 -- Team Edwa

Postby Jazz Girl » Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:02 pm

Tornado wrote: Besides, it's pretty clear from how SM wrote that scene that it's the desire to imprint that is dragging him towards Renesmee, rather than the desire to kill. He just doesn't understand that until he experiences it, so ascribes a different emotion to the desire, based on what he is feeling at the time.


I know this is in no way related to Edward, but this thought really caught my attention. I never read it that way at all. And, between how we know the imprints between Quil & Claire, Embry and...damn, I can't remember her name off the top of my head and I don't have my books, but the girl in his high school class, and especially after reading in the OIG discussion of Sam & Emily, I can't say I agree. There is nothing in any of the descriptions of the other imprints that suggests that they were pulled to their imprintees. It only indicates that, once they had gone through phasing the first time, then they saw that person and the imprinting was instantaneous and permanant. Yes, Jacob uses the excuse of some sort of physical draw to Ness to explain the need to remain in her life and her need to have him around, but I can't say that I ever truly believed that. It just isn't supported by the other information we have. So, I always read it as exactly as you described; seeking her out with the intent to kill her.

Corona~ That's an interesting thought about Edward addressing some of Jacob's less-than-loving thoughts about Ness. But, I don't think it's in Edward's character. First of all, he loves his daughter too much to ever hurt her that way. Just as he always tried to shield Bella from anything that might hurt her or make her unhappy, I see that pattern continuing well into the future with his daughter. But, more importantly, that kind of spite just isn't in Edward's nature. It is just one of many vast differences between the two men. Where Jacob used every possible thought or comment against Edward at every turn, Edward, rather than trashing and painting his rival in a bad light, did everything he could to show Bella the true beauty and bounty of the love he had for her. Still, as MovieWard says, "it's an intriguing idea." :twisted:
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Re: Edward Cullen bringing sexy back since 1901 -- Team Edwa

Postby Tornado » Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:30 pm

Jazz Girl wrote:I know this is in no way related to Edward, but this thought really caught my attention. I never read it that way at all. And, between how we know the imprints between Quil & Claire, Embry and...damn, I can't remember her name off the top of my head and I don't have my books, but the girl in his high school class,


It was Jared and Kim. Embry hasn't imprinted ... yet!

Jazz Girl wrote:and especially after reading in the OIG discussion of Sam & Emily, I can't say I agree. There is nothing in any of the descriptions of the other imprints that suggests that they were pulled to their imprintees. It only indicates that, once they had gone through phasing the first time, then they saw that person and the imprinting was instantaneous and permanant. Yes, Jacob uses the excuse of some sort of physical draw to Ness to explain the need to remain in her life and her need to have him around, but I can't say that I ever truly believed that. It just isn't supported by the other information we have. So, I always read it as exactly as you described; seeking her out with the intent to kill her.


Yes, but Jake's is the only case we get to experience from the inside. We do get a little of it with Sam in the guide, when he immediately feels that he wants to leave Leah and go to Emily, but there's no suggestion of what he might have been experiencing prior to this. The guide also says that Emily had come down for a weekend visit at this stage, and although he had met her hundreds of times prior to beginning to phase, there's no indication he's had the opportunity to be anywhere near her since he began to phase. And since the guide is just giving us an overview of what happened, I don't think it's wise to take it as an indication of exactly what happens in imprinting. It's just not detailed enough for that.

However, in BD there are plenty of lines to indicate that Jake is experiencing the desire to be with Renesmee even while Bella is pregnant. It even explains his feelings for Bella (and her feelings for him) at this stage.
The first suggestion of this we get is on page 248 where Jake comments that in spite of the fact that Bella's happily married, she's still looking delighted to see him. That on its own isn't a compelling argument, but when taken with other statements, like the one on page 271/272 where Jake comments that the hold Bella has on him is growing harder to break, as if it was related to her expanding belly. In fact, as soon as I read that line in the book, I said to myself, "He's going to imprint on the baby." Especially as he continues to talk about a "pull" towards her on page 272, not to mention all the comments Bella then makes about him being a part of her life.
Also on page 326, when he thinks Bella is dead, he again mentions that the "pull" is no longer there. But then he realises the pull has "moved" downstairs. He thinks it's out the door, but when he gets downstairs he can't leave the house, because his feet are as heavy as lead. Instead, he feels the "pull" leading him to the baby, and of course, the only thing he feels for her at this stage is hatred, so he can't ascribe the emotion to anything else, but there's no doubt in my mind that SM intends this all to be related to the imprint.
Jake says the same thing later, when he explains that's why Bella doesn't need him so much anymore (pg 416). He says that "we had to be together, even then." referring to his need to be with Bella while Renesmee was inside her. Bella then acknowledges it, being glad that this now explains the "madness", as in, the madness of her inability to let go of Jake, which she had noticed was gone when she recovered after her transformation (mentioned on pages 398 and 400). So I'm sure that's exactly what SM intended when she wrote all these things in. The only question I have for SM on all of this is was this pull only there once Renesmee had been conceived, or was it possible some of it existed prior to that, and explained why Bella and Jake were attracted to each other at all. But that's probably getting a bit deep!
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Re: Edward Cullen bringing sexy back since 1901 -- Team Edwa

Postby SwanCullen » Sun Jul 17, 2011 10:13 pm

I don't know that I can add much to the discussion, as you all have said it very well! But Tornado, that last question you had for SM, I would like to know as well!

Well, I do have something to add. I think That Jake was really in love with Bella before she got pregnant. Then, when she was pregnant, possibly the imprinting started in a way. Also, wouldn't you think that a Vampires abilities grow over time? I ask this because the first time everyone meets Renesmee, they are instantly in love with her. I honestly think Renesmee is multi-talented. She can 'show' you her thoughts/memories. I think eventually that she will be able to project them (I think that this is discussed a bit in BD, but not sure.) I also think that the people/supernatural beings instantly loving her is a gift as well and will only increase over time.
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Re: Edward Cullen bringing sexy back since 1901 -- Team Edwa

Postby Tornado » Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:43 am

Yes, I've wondered too, if vampires can have more than one talent. But I always thought that Renesmee's attractiveness possibly had more to do with her age. Remember, the immortal children were also attractive and people fought to the death to protect them. It may be just because the beauty inherent in a child was captured in them when they were changed. This may be the same for Renesmee. I don't know if it will last beyond her childhood, though.
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Re: Edward Cullen bringing sexy back since 1901 -- Team Edwa

Postby 21Twilight21 » Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:42 pm

I love this discussion that's taking place! I don't have much to add to it since most of what I believe has already been said!
I would also like to know the answer to that question Tornado about the pull between Bella/Jacob/Nessie! I sometimes think that Jacob felt so connected to Bella before Nessie, because of the fact that Nessie and Bella are so much alike! They are mother and daughter so they have similiarities and there's no doubt that Nessie will be raised with the same beliefs and values that Bella has!

I think maybe it is possible that vampires have more than one talent, but maybe it's uncommon for multiple talents to be discovered?
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Re: Edward Cullen bringing sexy back since 1901 -- Team Edwa

Postby Tornado » Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:28 am

I'm hoping Nessie has a bit more of her dad in her, especially when it comes to liking cars, because that will give Jacob and Nessie something in common!
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Re: Edward Cullen bringing sexy back since 1901 -- Team Edwa

Postby SwanCullen » Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:03 am

Tornado wrote:Yes, I've wondered too, if vampires can have more than one talent. But I always thought that Renesmee's attractiveness possibly had more to do with her age. Remember, the immortal children were also attractive and people fought to the death to protect them. It may be just because the beauty inherent in a child was captured in them when they were changed. This may be the same for Renesmee. I don't know if it will last beyond her childhood, though.


That's true. However, I think Renesmee's looks will only get better in time. I think that people and super natural beings will be drawn even more so to her as she gets older and changes. That will also I think drive Edward crazy :lol:

21Twilight21 wrote:I think maybe it is possible that vampires have more than one talent, but maybe it's uncommon for multiple talents to be discovered?


I think that this could be the case. In the Twi world, it's comon to never say never. I mean, Edward thought he would never find his mate and he did. He never thought he would have a child because of his vampireness, and he did. He also though if he tasted Bella's blood, he would never stop, and he did. So I think this is a very good possibility.
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