Ambivalences

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Re: Ambivalences

Postby Jazz Girl » Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:41 pm

Tornado wrote:Personally, I think SM believes that Bella's HEA could not be truly perfect if Jacob was not included in her family in some way. That is happiness for her. And although a lot of fans have problems with it, from Bella's POV it will make her happy. I believe Jake is, essentially, a good guy, he just needs to grow up and learn a thing or two. Hopefully he will.


I think the issue most fans take is the manner of HEA. First, he's basically a permanant uninvited crasher in the family. Edward&Bella and Ness have literally NO time to establish their own dynamic. It's ALWAYS going to include Jacob. But, I think more importantly, there's also the matter of it's just not possible. SM always maintained that it was completely fine and understandable for Bella to love Edward and Jacob in different ways at the same time. But, life dictates that, eventually, you have to choose. In the end, there can be only one. So, the fact that Bella never had to own up to that, the fact that Edward has to continue to deal with Jacob, and the fact that Jacob is never forced to acknowledge and face his role in everything... it's just not right.
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Re: Ambivalences

Postby Tornado » Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:23 am

Jazz Girl wrote:SM always maintained that it was completely fine and understandable for Bella to love Edward and Jacob in different ways at the same time. But, life dictates that, eventually, you have to choose. In the end, there can be only one. So, the fact that Bella never had to own up to that, the fact that Edward has to continue to deal with Jacob, and the fact that Jacob is never forced to acknowledge and face his role in everything... it's just not right.


Yes, but didn't Bella made her choice when she chose Edward over Jake? While it may not be over for Jake at that point, it is for Bella. She's made her decision, and certainly once the birth is done she seems to have moved on completely (Jacob has by then too). The dynamic has changed, as has their relationships. The way she feels about Jacob has changed. So it's not quite the same thing as it was when she left his house at the end of Eclipse after saying goodbye to him.

But it is a damn shame that Edward and Bella have to deal with this from day one of their daughter's life!
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Re: Ambivalences

Postby corona » Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:26 am

Bella does choose Edward, absolutely. But...

Jacob made it quite clear that he wanted to kill Edward at the reception. Bella forgiving Jacob for the mean things he said to her is one thing, forgiving him for wanting to kill her husband and the father of her unborn child is another. She never asks him to apologize for that. By the end of the story, there is literally nothing that Jacob can say or do that will cause Bella to call him out and force him to acknowledge his self-absorption and lack of respect. Jacob has boundaries for everyone else, but there are none for him.

Instead of piling on Jacob, though, I think I should make it clear that I disagree strongly with the way that SM handled Jacob, especially the imprinting. I know she wanted us to like him, but she has frozen Jacob in time just as much as she did Bella and Edward. He doesn't show once that he respects Bella and Edward's roles as the parents of Nessie. Because of that, I do not have one ounce of respect for Jacob.

SM gives us the most extreme example possible of Jacob in a situation that should have been eye-opening. But she show Jacob as being completely self-absorbed. "Haven’t we experimented enough for one day?” Jacob asked, his voice a slightly higher pitch with stress. “Okay, Bella’s doing great, but let’s not push it." Nice touch, discussing Bella, the mother, in third-person right in front of her while trying to get everyone to agree that Bella has held her daughter long enough. And he does this in front of Edward, the father.

A little bit of humility would have gone an awful long way for Jacob. The way it was done, though, makes it seem as if losing Nessie to Jacob was the proper price that B&E had to pay for her immortality. Jacob is in Bella's life because Edward abandoned Bella. Bella does choose Edward, but stubbornly tries to keep Jacob close as a friend, even when Jacob himself tries to tell her that it just isn't possible.

It's like giving Nessie to Jacob is the atonement B&E have to pay for their sins, and Jacob remains completely blameless.

Everything always comes back to this damn imprinting scene. If only SM had made Jacob a little sympathetic and respectful during that it could have gone down much easier. So which is it, a bungled attempt at trying to jam the original story to the one developed in NM or EC, or is SM sending a message? I originally thought that SM was sending a message, but now I'm not so sure, it may have simply been a bad mistake.
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Re: Ambivalences

Postby Tornado » Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:02 pm

This is another reason why I wouldn't mind more of this story sometime, because I believe that Jacob's essentially a good kid. He has a lot to learn about appropriate behaviour, certainly, but I think he's capable of learning it. And SM has just left him completely obnoxious, alienating everybody, and all we'll see when we imagine Bella and Edward in the future is Jacob continuing to be his normal obnoxious self.

I can imagine him changing, but I can't know it for sure unless she tells us, and since she always insists he's a good person, then he must change, because his attitude in Eclipse and BD is so repellent. I'm sure he will always be impulsive and reckless to some extent, but showing that he respects and loves and admits he was wrong about the Cullens, particularly Edward, is something I need before I can like him again. Until then, he will always be this obnoxious, self righteous brat.
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Re: Ambivalences

Postby Vivian » Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:12 pm

Hi. I'm new here. I've been reading posts and had a lot of opinions and questions. I've only recently discovered the Twilight Saga. I'm a 48 year old single woman, and my sister bought me the first 2 books at a yard sale for less than a dollar. After reading them, I immediately had to go out and buy the other 2 book, all 3 movies, soundtracks, and lots of other stuff. I read the books (all 4) in one week. Watched the movies, then started over with the first book. The second time I read the books I took more time and thought more about the characters, the situations, the conversations, etc. Then I found Midnight Sun on SM's website and really loved that. I understood Edward a lot more after that.

Anyway...on to my opinions.

I think that one reason Bella didn't call Jacob out on the way he acted was her guilty feelings. She always felt responsible for those around her. She felt guilty for the pain, rage, depression, bitterness that he felt. Much of his sarcasm and anger came, not only from the pain of rejection by Bella, but the fact that he held the Cullens responsible for his transformation into the wolf. As the story progressed he came to terms with his being a werewolf, even liked certain aspects of it, but in the beginning he was very resentful of the changes it forced him to make in his life. So not only was he suffering over his "first love" and all the pain that comes with that, he was suffering with the fact that his whole life had changed...all because of the Cullens. Or so he thought. Another reason is that Bella realized he was young, immature, this was his first love, and she knew that he was not emotionally prepared to handle so much. Edward is much more mature, having lived for so long, and having had a century to deal with his fate and future. All of this was forced on Jacob all at once, in a very short period of time, with little time or help to come to terms with it. All 4 books, from Bella arriving at school the first day day until the time she became a vampire, all of this occurred within a 1 1/2 to 2 year period. So much pain, hurt, horror, love, change, etc for ALL of them to deal with in such a short time.

Another thought that I had was about the imprinting. After Bella learns of the imprinting Jacob tells her that he believes it was always meant for him to be a part of her life...because of Renesmee. He thought he was in love with Bella, and she had an almost uncontrollable urge to have him near her, even throughout the pregnancy. But he tells Bella that he believes it was Renesmee that he was drawn to, not to Bella. Even though he couldn't possibly know it at the time. So maybe "fate" or "destiny" or whatever you want to call it, attracted him and Bella to each other so that he would be there for Renesmee.

Also, someone mentioned that it would be hard for Jacob and Renesmee when she begins to mature, because Edward would be able to read their thoughts. Any passionate feelings or thoughts they have for each other. But wouldn't that be true no matter who Renesmee is with? And obviously, Edward is reading Jacob's thoughts regarding Renesmee even now. If those thoughts were anything more than pure, protective, etc....wouldnt Edward put him through a wall? I don't believe that Jacob has any type of "pedophile" feelings toward Renesmee. Edward would not stand for that. Edward and Bella also realize that not only Jacob, but the whole wolf pack, will always protect Renesmee. The Volturi aren't going to let it go, I'm sure they will be back someday.

And lastly, someone stated that it wasn't fair that Bella got "everything" without having to give up anything. She didn't even know she wanted to be a mother until she felt her "little nudger". Then she realized that it was something worth risking everything for, a child with the man she loved. Something she had been told she couldn't have, but was willing to give up for him. She was willing to give up everything for her love...and personally I think it's wonderful that she didn't HAVE to give it up in the end. It was enough that she was willing to. She proved her love, devotion, strength, etc just by giving all she had. How wonderful that she was blessed for her willingness to sacrifice all, by not having to after all.

I hadn't thought of Renesmee as a gift to Edward until I read it here, but it is so true. He thought of himself as a monster, as someone selfish for loving Bella, doomed and beyond redemption for what he was and certainly if he took Bella's soul. Having Renesmee showed him that redemption is not out of his reach. If it was how would he be so blessed as to create a child out of pure love with Bella?

Anyway, I loved these books and really enjoy reading the other opinions here. I hope mine make sense to someone. LOL
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Re: Ambivalences

Postby Tornado » Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:59 am

Vivian wrote:Another reason is that Bella realized he was young, immature, this was his first love, and she knew that he was not emotionally prepared to handle so much. Edward is much more mature, having lived for so long, and having had a century to deal with his fate and future.


Yes, but you do have to remember that Edward is still frozen as a 17 year old, so, even though he has had time to mature, in some ways it is difficult because of the unchanging state of a vampire. Yes, he has learnt a few things along the road, but I think the main reason for the difference in their behaviour is that Edward is more inclined personality-wise (and some of this may stem from his mind reading talent, which he had to some extent even when he was human) to step back and view things objectively, whereas Jacob doesn't accept any opinion other than his own. Hopefully, since he still has the ability to learn and grow, he will learn this in time.
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Re: Ambivalences

Postby Openhome » Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:14 pm

I think Jacob's chance to learn and grow lies at the heart of Renesmee's story. If we ever get it, that is...
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Re: Ambivalences

Postby smitten_by_twilight » Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:15 am

There are several different points here that I agree with.

1. Jacob is basically a good kid.

Yes. While his emotions are unruly and his statements are sometimes wild, his motivations are generally pretty good and his actual (major) actions are almost always the good ones to make in the situation.

2. Jacob is an immature brat who tramples all over B+E.

Pretty much, yeah. Despite the physical maturation - does this give him any advantage over Edward? Should he have a few traits that come with physical maturity, like greater emotional control? Anyway, in terms of experience, he's still 16 by the end of BD. He is a mature 16, but still. And like he says, he knows he can get away with pretty much anything around Bella, and thus quite a bit around Edward.

A side note to that is that Edward has already noted that he kind of likes Jacob - not surprising, he's a likeable kid. That wouldn't stop him from putting Jacob through a wall, just like it didn't stop Bella from going for his throat. Jacob can be irritating as h***. I tend to think that's his personality, sadly, and not just about his age.

3. Jacob's best chance to grow up is with Renesmee.

Yes, Bella can't set boundaries very well with him, guilt, the nature of their relationship, etc. You're a huge monster who invades everyone's personal space, something like that. Edward is unlikely to set too many boundaries - too sensitive of a relationship, and then, he is unlikely to feel that making Jacob grow up is his role. Boundaries that Edward sets are more likely to be around Nessie, and other sensible and personal boundaries (No, Jacob, there's no way you're sleeping in the living room of the cottage at all. Go somewhere else).

But Nessie has no reasons not to set boundaries with Jacob, will need to set them even more than she will with Edward (who despite the overprotectiveness has considerable respect for others' need for privacy), and is the one person who does not need to worry about repercussions. I think that Nessie is likely to quite soon (remember, she is mentally mature, even though her emotional maturity is likely to be impacted by her rapid growth) insist that Jacob grow the h*** up. And Bella and Edward will smile quietly at each other.
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Re: Ambivalences

Postby Tornado » Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:52 am

And of course, if it's Renesmee telling him these things, he will have no choice but to comply, as he has imprinted on her, and what she wants and needs is paramount. Although I do think, now that it involves their daughter, there will be a few more boundaries from Edward and Bella, especially Edward, as he has stepped out of the role of a lover who doesn't think he is right for the woman he loves, into a father who has a greater belief in his own self worth, which will lead to more confidence when creating boundaries for his daughter. And if they are the right things for Renesmee, again, Jacob will comply, because he MUST do what is best for her. I can see him caving quite frequently and without complaint, because that is the nature of imprinting.
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Re: Ambivalences

Postby Jazz Girl » Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:32 pm

Oh what I would not give to see that little scene. One day, Ness, in her normal state of curiosity, asks her daddy why it is he and Jacob are always so sarcastic with one another (as I have no doubt that, despite a cordiality existing between the two, their history, not to mention all the things I'm sure Edward will curse his gift having to witness in Jacob's thoughts once Ness becomes the beauty she is assured to be, will never allow them to be too close). Of course, Edward will tell his daughter the truth, sharing it with her through her gift in his perfect recall. Ness, seeing the whole story unfold, lays into Jacob something fierce for all the hurled insults, emotional blackmail, moral superiority and all-around immature jackassery Jacob made them (and us) endure before (and after) she came along. Huh, what do you know? Maybe Jacob gets his come-uppance after all. :D
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