Ambivalences

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Re: Ambivalences

Postby Tornado » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:31 pm

I really don't see that happening. I can't imagine either Edward or Jacob acting that way, as it would hurt Renesmee. I certainly can't see Edward sharing that information with Renesmee as revenge. It's too petty for him. And she can't read his mind, so how is she supposed to see that?
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Re: Ambivalences

Postby Jazz Girl » Wed Aug 17, 2011 10:10 am

Tornado wrote:I really don't see that happening. I can't imagine either Edward or Jacob acting that way, as it would hurt Renesmee. I certainly can't see Edward sharing that information with Renesmee as revenge. It's too petty for him. And she can't read his mind, so how is she supposed to see that?


I think you misinterpreted my description. I don't see Edward sharing that information to be petty or for revenge. I think Edward will have a very ... straightforward relationship with Ness. I think he will be very honest with her in answering all the questions she is bound to have about her very complicated past and family. And, the history with Jacob is absolutely assured to be one of those topics of discussion. And, Ness may not be able to read Edward's thoughts, but he will be honest with her in describing his thoughts, his feelings, the situations. And, as he does, he will see Ness' understanding of what happened unfolding in her thoughts, able to flesh out the full story as it were. In his honesty, Ness will see the truth of Jacob's interactions with her entire family, and specifically her mother and father. And, while I fully acknowledge that she is likely to let alot of it slide because of their relationship, I also believe she'll be much to much of her mother's daughter to accept all of it without calling him out on his behavior.

It's all speculation and wishful thinking, of course. But, it's one of those scenes that I like to believe happens for the sake of full resolution.
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Re: Ambivalences

Postby corona » Wed Aug 17, 2011 12:13 pm

Heh, heh. I don't think you have to imagine that, Jazz Girl, it is something that absolutely will be brought up at some point. Just how much detail Edward gives Nessie remains a question, but there is no doubt that it is going to happen at some point. Bella does have a remarkable bracelet, after all. And Nessie was a witness to Bella's attack on Jacob. Somehow, some way, she is going to start asking questions.

And doesn't Jacob point the way on how to handle that? Didn't Jacob insist on complete, absolute full disclosure in Eclipse? Didn't he blame Edward for holding back information and trying to protect Bella? Wasn't the whole point of Eclipse that Bella needed to be aware of all of her options so that she could make an informed choice, and that this was so necessary that Jacob had to knowingly inflict pain on Bella? Doesn't he insist in Eclipse that the imprintee also has a choice as well?

If Jacob's actions were so noble, then he should be glad if Edward tells Nessie everything. There's nothing he should be ashamed of. I don't think Edward should leave anything out, including Jacob wishing Bella was dead and threatening to kill Edward at the wedding. After all, doesn't that simply demonstrate the intensity of his heroic effort?

That would be pretty funny. Edward could leave supplying the whole context of everything to Jacob himself, who would have to explain to Nessie that he was doing everything because he was so passionately obsessed with, uh, her mother. Saving her life, of course, although he had to force some kisses on her, but it was all for a good cause.

Yeah, I think full disclosure is the way to go. No matter how painful it might be, it's the right thing to do.

Snort! I just remembered, full disclosure requires Nessie knowing about "the proposition". Hmmm, maybe there is a story to tell after all. Also, I wonder if she remembers "throw it out the window"?
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Ambivalences

Postby StellaBlueBella » Wed Aug 17, 2011 12:56 pm

Openhome wrote:I think Jacob's chance to learn and grow lies at the heart of Renesmee's story. If we ever get it, that is...


Yes of course! Now that you point it out, it's so obvious. To me, Bella always seemed to be struggling too much with her guilt of not reciprocating Jacob's feelings to be able to really take him to task for his misdeeds. I mean, I've seen examples of this syndrome in 'parenting by guilt' after a divorce, etc. and the kids turn out to be total brats. Sorry but it is true, there are some very bratty children in this world and Jacob happens to be one of them. Not that it makes them bad people or unlovable but their row to hoe ends up being much longer than if people had just dealt with them honestly to begin with. I did lose track of how old Jacob was supposed to be by the end of the saga but he wasn't even old enough to have graduated high school yet, right? And he never struck me as the most mature person. I loved his snark in BD but he was definitely not seeing the big picture. Regardless of his age, he was clearly still a child.

Jacob thought he was in love with Bella but, they never had a relationship as lovers or even as two equal friends. I doubt he would have the capacity to understand his wrongs until he has a way to relate to the dynamic between ExB and is given cause to reflect on his actions in the past.

One of the primary complaints I hear about BD is that is was just too perfect, everyone got exactly what they wanted. I think there simply hadn't been enough time yet for things to go wrong or get more complicated.

Speaking of complicated, I am fascinated by the dynamic betweed Edward and Nessie and what happens when their gifts are working together. I mean she can already share her mind and he can already read it so is something even more powerful created when they are sharing together? I doubt this would be the case but it does seem like Edward's gift could in effect cancel out Nessie's since he could read her mind anyway.... But what would be the point of that from a plot perspective? I think he will handle the history with Jacob and her mother perfectly because he will be able to know exactly what she is questioning and what her maturity level is... He will see the questions forming in her mind and understand what she is picking up on before she can formulate the questions. All he has to do is get the timing right. For me, as a parent, there are these moments when I realize I just over answered what my kid was really asking... Edward won't have that problem. I am particularly jealous of this fact now as I fear the whole birds and bees convo is approaching and I really don't want to over answer on that subject! Anyway, I don't think Edward would ever be the type to intentionally hurt his own child (and wife) to spite Jacob.

I hope Bella has learned from her mistake of being too permissive with Jacob and won't parent Nessie from a place of guilt. That would not be good!

I just realized I am writing all of this as if there is a future here for these characters, as if the saga isn't over. I try to make myself believe that's all done but I just can't help but keep the hope alive for more.
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Re: Ambivalences

Postby Tornado » Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:48 pm

corona wrote:And doesn't Jacob point the way on how to handle that? Didn't Jacob insist on complete, absolute full disclosure in Eclipse? Didn't he blame Edward for holding back information and trying to protect Bella? Wasn't the whole point of Eclipse that Bella needed to be aware of all of her options so that she could make an informed choice, and that this was so necessary that Jacob had to knowingly inflict pain on Bella? Doesn't he insist in Eclipse that the imprintee also has a choice as well?


Yes, but Edward is a gentleman, and considerate of others. Jacob is not. We all know his behavior is self-centered at the best of times! :roll: But Edward is reluctant to tell Bella all the Cullens' stories because he knows he hears too much through his mind reading. I really can't imagine him telling Renesmee much about their relationship with Jacob prior to her birth. He would be more inclined to leave it to Jacob to explain that one. I do think Bella might be more inclined to have a heart to heart with her daughter about it, though.
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Re: Ambivalences

Postby corona » Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:16 pm

Trust me, Tornado, my posting definitely had a lot of nasty snark in it. :twisted:

The problem with giving Nessie any information is that everything requires context, so I don't think Jacob's obsession with Bella can be avoided. Whatever info Edward and Bella provide, though, I suspect will be edited down for her into a version that Melissa Rosenberg would be proud of.

But maybe that's the point. Jacob always needs a lot of cleaning up, but he isn't even aware of it. How will he ever change if everyone is always protecting him?

Here's another thought. We are assuming that giving Nessie the full story will be cruel, but we are also assuming Nessie and Jacob as a romantic couple, and that it must be so. Holding back information from her is essentially putting Jacob's interests above hers and demonstrating a fear that Nessie could actually make a choice other than Jacob.

The more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that this is something that Jacob needs to do on his own. He owes that to everyone involved.

Hmmm. Thinking about it even more, I am certain Nessie will find out very early in her life that Jacob will give her anything she asks for. All she has to do is ask Jacob to tell her everything, and he will. Yeah, with Auntie Rose hanging around I'm sure an indiscreet comment or two will goad her into doing that.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Ambivalences

Postby Tornado » Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:50 pm

corona wrote:Trust me, Tornado, my posting definitely had a lot of nasty snark in it. :twisted:


Yeah, I got that impression! ;)

I'm sure she'll hear from somewhere. Probably from Jacob himself. I don't think he'd hold back from telling her about it, especially if she asks him. Then he'll have to tell. It would be interesting to know exactly what he would say. I think it would be quite a bit more balanced, as he is no longer in love with Bella, and he knows Edward better now, so he will be able to view their relationship more objectively. Moreover, if their relationship didn't exist, he wouldn't have Renesmee, so he's definitely going to view it in a more positive light these days. I think he would be frank about it, though, and with some reflection, hopefully more aware of the things he did wrong during this time.
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Re: Ambivalences

Postby Jazz Girl » Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:23 pm

Tornado wrote:
corona wrote:Trust me, Tornado, my posting definitely had a lot of nasty snark in it. :twisted:


Yeah, I got that impression! ;)

I'm sure she'll hear from somewhere. Probably from Jacob himself. I don't think he'd hold back from telling her about it, especially if she asks him. Then he'll have to tell. It would be interesting to know exactly what he would say. I think it would be quite a bit more balanced, as he is no longer in love with Bella, and he knows Edward better now, so he will be able to view their relationship more objectively. Moreover, if their relationship didn't exist, he wouldn't have Renesmee, so he's definitely going to view it in a more positive light these days. I think he would be frank about it, though, and with some reflection, hopefully more aware of the things he did wrong during this time.


Tornado, I wish I had your optimism about Jacob's character. It's not that I think he's a bad kid. On the contrary, I do think he's essentially a good kid. But he has his very deep flaws. The issue I run into over and over in envisioning Jacob's future is that he's never been, nor at this point do I see him ever being, made to answer for his deplorable behavior. He's never once ever seen anything wrong with it, any of it. And, with the imprinting, he was able to find that cockamamie excuse of doing it because the imprinting somehow sensed Ness' presence as an ovum, which I find patently ridiculous. That is likely why it is that I do see Edward having that discussion with his daughter. No, Edward didn't like to tell the families stories. But, I believe that, more so than being related to how much he unintentinally hear, I believe most of that had to do with his overwhelming need to shield Bella from the realities of his world. Yes, part of Edward wanted her to run away from him for her own good. But, he also wanted to protect her from realities he thought she'd find too scary. It's why he was always vague and hedged his words when talking about his vampiric qualities. So, that essentially goes out the window when Bella is turned. Not to mention, he really did stop doing that after their confrontation about Jacob in Eclipse.

Yes, Edward is a gentleman. But, that doesn't preclude him from honesty and straightforwardness. He's not a pushover, particularly where his daughter's well-being is considered. Jacob may be (and this isn't even a foregone conclusion) Ness' soulmate. But, Edward will always be her father. He will do what is necessary to ensure that Ness has the happiness he wants for her. And that includes doing what is necessary to ensure Jacob is aware and has corrected the deplorable behaviors he displayed as an adolescent.
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Re: Ambivalences

Postby Tornado » Wed Aug 17, 2011 10:53 pm

Jazz Girl wrote:I do think he's essentially a good kid. But he has his very deep flaws.


He sure does! :roll:


Jazz Girl wrote:The issue I run into over and over in envisioning Jacob's future is that he's never been, nor at this point do I see him ever being, made to answer for his deplorable behavior. He's never once ever seen anything wrong with it, any of it.


Yes, but post-imprinting, his behaviour will hinge on what is right for Nessie. We see this even in BD. It is actually quite amazing when you consider Jacob's behaviour towards the new vampires on the scene, and not just the vegetarian ones. There are non-vegetarian vampires around, beings who he is supposed to kill, and he won't even glare directly at them. The book says he glares at the floor instead. That in itself is an incredible leap forward in self control for the kid. In Eclipse, and even in the first part of BD, he had no hesitation sinking the character of every vampire he came across, and insulting them to their faces. Now, he won't even glare directly at them. That's quite a feat for someone like him.

Jazz Girl wrote:Yes, Edward is a gentleman. But, that doesn't preclude him from honesty and straightforwardness.


Absolutely. But if this is his daughter's lover we're talking about, and he sees a change to Jacob's behaviour from the inside, where is the sense in dredging up the past? I think it's more in line with Jacob's forthright character to be upfront with Renesmee about those things, and I can see Edward leaving that to Jacob to explain as he saw fit. Jacob would never do anything to hurt Renesmee, and it would hurt her if Jacob slandered her parents' characters, so I can't see him doing that. I think he would explain it in a fashion that would suit Edward and Bella. And I can see them coming to the conclusion that it is something he needs to sort out with the woman he loves if he is to have a healthy relationship with her.
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Re: Ambivalences

Postby StellaBlueBella » Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:25 pm

Tornado wrote:
Jazz Girl wrote:Yes, Edward is a gentleman. But, that doesn't preclude him from honesty and straightforwardness.


Absolutely. But if this is his daughter's lover we're talking about, and he sees a change to Jacob's behaviour from the inside, where is the sense in dredging up the past? I think it's more in line with Jacob's forthright character to be upfront with Renesmee about those things, and I can see Edward leaving that to Jacob to explain as he saw fit.


I think the reason that Edward would have this discussion with Nessie is because she will eventually ask him about it. Is there an assumption that he will initiate the conversation? In my opinion, there will be innocent references to the past (not to mention the not so innocent ones from Rosalie or possibly even Leah will likely make) that will clue her in. Simple things like inside jokes or just comments from people around them... Even Charlie could say things that make Nessie realize there is more to the story. I think it's basically unavoidable.

As she starts to pick up on the past, I think she will feel more comfortable asking someone other than Jacob or Bella about it. I know I would. She won't know at first if she is imagining things or what. I am going on the assumption that she will have a very candid and close relationship with her father due to both their gifts and love they have for each other. I think she will feel more comfortable seeking his opinion first and trust his counsel rather than directly questioning her mom and possibly lover.

Anyway, I just don't see Edward as being the one to bring it up. However, I do see Nessie and Edward discussing the past before she talks to anyone else. I certaintly expect that he would be honest with his daughter yet considerate of her feelings as well as his wife's and even Jacob's feelings.
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