Ambivalences

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Re: Ambivalences

Postby Jazz Girl » Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:00 pm

Tornado wrote:
Jazz Girl wrote:Yes, Edward is a gentleman. But, that doesn't preclude him from honesty and straightforwardness.


Absolutely. But if this is his daughter's lover we're talking about, and he sees a change to Jacob's behaviour from the inside, where is the sense in dredging up the past? I think it's more in line with Jacob's forthright character to be upfront with Renesmee about those things, and I can see Edward leaving that to Jacob to explain as he saw fit. Jacob would never do anything to hurt Renesmee, and it would hurt her if Jacob slandered her parents' characters, so I can't see him doing that. I think he would explain it in a fashion that would suit Edward and Bella. And I can see them coming to the conclusion that it is something he needs to sort out with the woman he loves if he is to have a healthy relationship with her.


I know it's all speculation but, first and foremost, this is not a conversation I see Edward leaving in the hands of anyone other than himself and/or his wife (yes, I believe that he would involve Bella to allow the full story to be told). Edward may understand the imprinting, give it the space and respect that it needs. But, that doesn't mean he's just handing over his daughter or surrendering his role in her life. No matter how much he sees a change in Jacob, no matter how much he accepts that Jacob will be a part of her life, Edward is still her father. And, especially given that he never thought he would have a child, I can't imagine him giving over any part of that role, particularly guiding his daughter where matters of the heart are concerned. No, I only ever see Ness as a daddy's girl, and Edward the doting father. And, I believe that Edward, with his new and deep understanding of love and partnership, will know that Ness has to understand the whole story to have a happy, healthy relationship with Jacob, or whomever she chooses.

As for Jacob's behavior with Ness, here again, I think you have more faith than I do, this time in the nature of the imprinting itself. I agree that Jacob will never intentionally hurt Ness. But, I also believe that that means that he will avoid anything that, while maybe better for her in the long run, would cause her temporary discomfort. He only wants to make her happy. And, just as Edward spent a goodly amount of time sheltering Bella to both their detriment early in their relationship, Jacob's need to have Ness only be happy won't allow him to see the bigger picture that sometimes, in order to find happiness, you have to go through some tough times. Jacob will not ever want to be the cause of Ness bearing one moment of discomfort. Accordingly, I can't see him initiating or even being comfortable with any kind of honest discussion of the past, unless it is absolutely demanded by Ness herself, which is how we got here to begin with in that I do see her doing so after she has a conversation with her dad.
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Re: Ambivalences

Postby corona » Thu Aug 18, 2011 4:14 pm

StellaBlueBella, I think you have a good catch there on Charlie. As the only person in Nessie's early life that is completely unaware of the imprinting, Charlie would feel no need to guard his tongue. I can see him now asking Jacob, in front of Nessie, if he has been dating anyone since Bella's wedding.

This imprinting thing complicates everything, doesn't it? I firmly believe Jacob should lay everything out for Nessie, but I have to agree with Jazz Girl that the imprinting will likely cause Jacob to avoid the issue. I didn't think about that (how did that escape me?). Yeah, Edward is a good bet for her to go to first.

The fateful words: "Jacob, tell me EVERYTHING".

If she actually compels Jacob to do that, she is going to get an earful, and far more than she bargained for if Jacob literally tells her everything. She will find out that her mother was Jacob's first and only choice, and the only one that Jacob has genuinely fallen in love with. Jacob did not fall in love with Nessie, he imprinted on her, that's something different. And will Jacob tell her that his imprinting on her is what actually saved her life?
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Ambivalences

Postby Tornado » Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:20 pm

I think the difference is that I don't see it as a father's responsibility to tell his daughter about her lover's past. Sure, Edward was involved in it, but I think this story relates primarily to Jake and Nessie's relationship. This is why I think Edward would probably say that it was Jacob's job to talk about it. I'm sure he would eavesdrop on that conversation, just to keep tabs on it, and he might fill in gaps (if there were any) later, especially if his daughter asked him about it, as I'm sure she would.

I do have faith in imprinting. Judging from what the guide says about Sam and Emily and the sensitive, overwhelmingly caring and revolve-around-her way that he treats her, it's difficult to see Jacob being too overbearing with Nessie. Granted, Jacob is a different person from Sam, but he has been trying to emulate Sam for years. Now with Edward as a role model, and with a chance to grow up a bit, now that he is in a better place and not pursuing a girl he can't have, I think he will have the opportunity to mature with Nessie, and will be far more gentle with her. He has already shown signs of self control in his treatment of the other vampires. I think there are positive signs that he is pointed in the right direction, although I'm sure he will always be a little too impulsive for his own good!

Whatever the answers, it would be nice if we could stop speculating and actually read about it! :)
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Re: Ambivalences

Postby StellaBlueBella » Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:48 am

Tornado wrote: Whatever the answers, it would be nice if we could stop speculating and actually read about it!


Exactly! A girl can dream can't she? *sighs* (We really need a sighing smilie)
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Re: Ambivalences

Postby smitten_by_twilight » Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:40 am

corona wrote:The fateful words: "Jacob, tell me EVERYTHING".

If she actually compels Jacob to do that, she is going to get an earful, and far more than she bargained for if Jacob literally tells her everything. She will find out that her mother was Jacob's first and only choice, and the only one that Jacob has genuinely fallen in love with. Jacob did not fall in love with Nessie, he imprinted on her, that's something different. And will Jacob tell her that his imprinting on her is what actually saved her life?


What a horrible thing for Nessie to hear ... almost as horrible as having your free will taken away from you. After reading Jestak's observations I have some serious issues with the whole imprinting thing, not just Jacob on Nessie. If Nessie needs him to be honest, he will ... and lord knows how she'll take it.

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Re: Ambivalences

Postby corona » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:56 am

The more I think about it, the more I agree with Jazz Girl that Nessie and Edward are going to develop a very strong and special relationship. That makes me feel a little gooey inside.

One thing that both Nessie's and Claire's parents must avoid is bringing up their daughters with a show of expectation that they will become a couple with their imprinters. Both sets of parents should show neutrality while emphasizing their daughters' freedom of choice and their individuality. This is a major difference between the imprinting between adults and between adults and children. The adult relationships can work themselves out on their own. When children are involved there is a lot more outside influence going on. The parents have to be parents.

Other than that, Edward does have additional obligations to Nessie (and Bella!) due to the unique situation of Jacob and Bella's past. Jacob does not treat Edward and Bella as parents, there is a different dynamic going on than between Quil and Claire's parents. That has to be explained. It is eventually going to come out anyway, we are talking about an eternity ahead of everyone.

What in the world is Charlie going to say when he sees Jacob showing romantic affection towards Nessie? Or is Jacob going to avoid that and tell Nessie to go on ahead and visit Charlie, but he has to do something else? And he always ends up making an excuse? And, uh, maybe you should take off that promise ring, Nessie, and not say anything about me? Once Charlie finds out he'll tell Nessie "You know he was seeing your mother at one time? He and your father almost got into a fight. What in the world is going on? And do your parents know?"

What would Nessie think if she begins a romantic relationship with Jacob and then finds out later? What are Edward and Bella going to say, "Well, we knew you two were going to be together, and we didn't want to mess that up." If I were Nessie I would greatly resent that and probably blame my parents.

It is best to get things out in the open as soon as possible and before a romantic relationship starts.

BTW, Jacob does not always come off bad. After all, he is the one that became the alpha to thwart an attack on the Cullens, saving Bella's and Nessie's life.

And...Jacob was not hanging out there all by himself. Bella did reciprocate love and affection and basically admitted to Jacob that he was her choice if she stayed human. Getting everything out in the open early will reduce a lot of jealousy and resentment that Nessie might feel towards her own mother, and Edward will make sure that happens.

P.S. Tornado, I do believe they will get together, SM has said as much. I have no problem with Jacob, I just don't connect with him. I wanted to because I know SM loved him, but he just left me cold in BD.

The difference between a true "love at first sight" experience and imprinting is very blurred when dealing with adults. With children, though, the difference becomes apparent, and it is more like Bella says, that Jacob has put a "claim" on Nessie. Jacob has no romantic love whatsoever for Nessie, and never will until she flips that switch herself. If I put myself in Nessie's shoes, I think I would find that...damn, I don't know what I would think, who am I fooling? It would be pretty weird, though, although I can't help but think like a human. Maybe Nessie thinks differently, who knows?

I do think, though, that the biggest issues may very well be between Nessie and her mother instead of her and Jacob.

And, of course, SM could very well handle it all by saying that Nessie learned everything when she was 3 years old and was a little weirded out, but got over it quickly.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Ambivalences

Postby Tornado » Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:13 pm

I'm sure the story of Jacob and what happened with Bella will be told to Nessie fairly early on. I just think Jacob will be the one who does the most explaining. I don't think any of them will avoid the issue, and I'm quite sure that Nessie would have thrashed it out with everyone involved long before she's old enough for Jacob to start showing affection to her.

As for Charlie, he knows there's something weird going on with his granddaughter. He'd have to know that - she's ageing at an incredible rate! Since he has already requested that he know as little as possible about all the weird aspects of this, he'll probably drop his jaw at the first sign of Jacob being affectionate with Nessie, but realise that he really doesn't want to know about all that! After all, it's strictly need to know with him! And as Bella said, he'll come up with his own explanation. But everything to do with Nessie will be so unusual that, by the time affection with Jake happens, he'll probably just shudder and keep his mouth shut.
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Re: Ambivalences

Postby StellaBlueBella » Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:32 pm

Corona wrote: I do think, though, that the biggest issues may very well be between Nessie and her mother instead of her and Jacob.


Well, if human nature applies to vamps and half-breeds you are right on the money. See it on Jerry Springer everyday, lol. Or I would if I watched TV that is. Maybe this particular angle would be avoided somehow in order to make the story less... Typical? (I think that's a nice way of saying it.)
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Explorations

Postby Violet Sunlight » Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:45 pm

Sorry for the super long post. I don’t post every day, hence I am always behind on the wonderful conversations going on and always trying to squeeze everything I want to say in one post. In this post, I am going to address Corona’s epiphany first, then share my views regarding my feelings on what it means to me to become a vampire.

To Corona ~ Firstly, I want to say I can’t tell you how many times you crack me up with your funny posts. Hilarious. :lol:

Okay, here we go. I loved your epiphany, very insightful. SM does seem to use Jacob to accomplish many things in Twilight for Bella’s sake. That was one of the themes from the very beginning. Jacob was originally born to clue Bella in on vampires. But, since SM had to make the story longer, why stop there? When you need something out of the ordinary done and quickly, Jacob is the one to call. I know you and everyone else here don't feel that way, so thank you for bearing with me. ;)

Also, for myself, regarding the two scenes you are referring to in your epiphany, the scene where NEWBORN vampire Bella meets Nessie and the next day NEWBORN vampire Bella and Nessie meet Charlie, I feel it also all makes sense to me not only because Bella has to find out about the imprinting and Bella has to pass the Charlie test, but Jacob’s motives make sense to me if you put Jacob and Nessie in the imprinting bubble. Jacob just doesn’t like Nessie because she is more beautiful to him than human Bella. Jacob has imprinted on Nessie, Jacob’s whole life has literally and essentially changed forever. As I said before, Law #3 of the imprinting set up, is the imprintee and imprinter must remain together. I tend to think always, but I am open to think a temporary separation could be possible. But, in my opinion, not likely.

Therefore, as you so brilliantly put it, Rosalie putting Nessie in Jacob’s arm first, accomplishes the outcome of Bella finding out about the imprinting, which in turn also accomplishes the fact that Bella is totally against the imprinting and the sharing Nessie idea with Jacob, which in turn gives Jacob the motive to bring Charlie into the picture before the whole family leaves to New Hampshire without him. Because Law #3 of the imprinting rule is imprinter and imprintee stay together no matter what. So for me, Jacob’s actions and motives in both scenes (or the one scene as you put it) are very understandable, once I put Jacob and Nessie in the imprinting bubble. I also think, Tornado is right about Rosalie putting Nessie in Jacob’s arms so Jacob can see for himself this is what Nessie wants.

Okay, Now about the funny post you posted today, I agree with Jazz Girl regarding Bella’s denial for Jacob.

Now, speaking for myself, denial helps one accomplish many, what one deems, immoral, unethical and inappropriate behaviors. Bella keeps Jacob around after Edward’s return NOT only because as she says, she feels, 1. guilt for turning Jacob down romantically after all he has done for her; 2. Jacob is her Best-friend; 3. Jacob is her insurance policy and 4. What I have been trying to tell you all along, Bella romantically loves Jacob, and she wants him too, but, she has to be in denial to keep Jacob around. Because, she feels it would be immoral, unethical and inappropriate to make that consciously known to herself and everyone else, especially Edward. So what does she do? What I would do. Keep our beloved dog around and cover the obvious reasons of why with denial. Eclipse, was speaking the truth, guys can be unfair and girls can be mean. Sorry, sometimes things can be that way.

But, that was silly because denial only works on her not on everyone else. To everyone else, supernatural and otherwise, things are painfully clear. Especially, to Bella’s, and my, beloved dog. So SM uses Jacob’s extreme actions/tactics to break her out of the denial bubble. Consequently, forcing Bella to have the heart to heart conversation with Jacob, regarding her true feelings for him and her true feelings for not accepting him as a romantic love, at the end of Eclipse, instead of at the end of New Moon. Like I said many posts ago, the soul card trumps the heart card every time in these kinds of circumstances. At 17 and 18 years old, I myself was not aware of this fact either. I did not know how to politely and kindly dump someone , let alone, someone I romantically loved, but couldn’t or shouldn’t have. At least Bella eventually figured it out. I usually just waited to get dumped. It was, also hard for me but, at least the other person felt good about being the dumper and not the dumpee. In any event, it was a hard lesson for Bella and Jacob to learn and it was hard for Edward to have to watch.

This is the end of my response to your post. I hope I was somewhat helpful.

*******************************************************************************
To All ~ Regarding my feelings on why the vampire thirst is a deal breaker for me.

I know I said it before, but since we are on the subject of what becoming a vampire means to each of us, I will share my views again. Tornado is right, one either opposes the idea of becoming a vampire because of the vampire thirst or because of the loss of family and/or as December pointed out, potential family. In my opinion, maybe, even both reasons and maybe living an immortal life in this corrupt world might make someone oppose to becoming a vampire also. In any event, for myself, it was the thirst. The thirst has so many meanings for me. Due to the thirst, one is now a vampire being, no longer a human being. And of course, the whole vampire outfit is designed to lure the unsuspecting human for consumption of their blood. Again, another reason a vampire being is no longer a human being. So the person's humanity goes right out the window.

I also feel, veggie-vampires, are gambling with the safety/life of all the humans in their proximity. And more so, in their newborn status. Hypothetically speaking, I personally would have had, at least, the newborns under my care, live safely away from humans until the newborn status was completely over. Maybe this would have cut down the losses for Esme and Emmett. I know Bella was opting to go to Antarctica or something, but in my opinion, that should have been mandatory not optional. And if I was a vampire, I probably would have also opted to take a vacation a few times a year to places where there were no humans, for relief of the constant burning in my throat, of course. Maybe Isle Esme or Antartica etc. I can't remember now if the pain comes from being in the proximity of humans or, is the pain going on regardless if they are in the proximity of humans or not. I hope it's the former because if it is not, scratch my idea of going away for relief.

The topic of vampire thirst also makes me think of Renesmee. Now, the guide says hybrids have, both vampire and human traits. “They are much stronger and faster than humans, with sharper senses, but not as strong, fast, or sharp as a pure vampire”. The guide also says, “They can eat solid food, but generally find blood more appealing”. Okay, does Renesmee have the painful vampire thirst or, does she crave the appealing human blood, like I crave a nice juicy steak and/or chocolate cake (no pain)? Or does she have the painful vampire thirst but, at a level she can bear it? Well I guess, if she does have the painful thirst, it’s definitely, at a level she can bear it, otherwise, I would think she would have been crying in Charlie’s presence.

Now, granted veggie-vampires are very, very good at keeping control of their thirst. So I kind of classify them as professional gamblers. The chances of them losing their control, are slim. But, the chance is there, none the less. Hopefully, there will always be another supernatural being present when any veggie-vampire loses control.

Consequently, what is the veggie-vampire to do? They, understandably, crave their former human life and they want to live among us. And before Bella, many decades went by without there being any harm and/or casualty to any human in their proximity. Hence, I believe, if it were not for Bella’s presence in the Cullen’s house, Jasper would not have lost control in New Moon and, if it were not for Bella’s presence in the Cullen’s house again, Rosalie would not have, understandably, lost her control in Breaking Dawn. I say understandably, because we all know Rosalie had not fed since Bella returned from her honeymoon. And I do agree, that if Rosalie would have fed she would have NOT lost control. But, my point is, if a human being hangs out with veggie-vampires long enough, inevitably there will be an unpredictable/unforeseen circumstance(s) that could and/or would put the helpless human in harm’s way.

Thankfully and subsequently, as a rule, the Cullens, rightfully, make all efforts and attempts to keep humans safely away. But, for Bella (mainly Edward) they made exceptions to their rule. Big exceptions. Hence, not only for the private birthday party held for Bella but, the graduation party at the Cullen’s house, and the wedding at the Cullen house. When they accepted Bella in their lives/family, Bella’s presence brought her human world, unintentionally, with her, to their door step. I do understand all of these events, birth scene excluded, were Alice’s idea, but the family did go along with it, the family was in support and acceptance of Alice’s ideas. Even Edward’s idea to bring Bella over in Twilight in the first place was accepted by most. Only, Rosalie objected to the idea.

I do understand, all veggie-vampires did not have a choice in becoming vampires. The veggie-vampires either became a veggie-vampire due to an imminent death circumstance (medical purposes) or, they went from a red eyed vampire to a veggie-vampire for personal reasons like their conscience was bothering them (moral purposes). In both cases, the change was either, done as a treatment and/or cure to their physical and/or mental state of being. So understandably, they do the best they can with the card they were dealt. So I can sympathize for all the veggie-vampires. Therefore, if I was in the Twilight fairy tale, I would be uncomfortable in their presence, although I do understand their desire to live among us and their intentions which truly mean us no harm. So I would have to tolerate it and hope for the best. :|

However, in Bella’s case, without the imminent death circumstance, she was volunteering to end her humanity and have this plight/burden be hers for the sake of being permanently/forever with her love Edward. Now, speaking for myself, if I were not a Christian, I would have easily accepted Bella being turned/changed simply because she wanted to. Now, I do understand this way of thinking, because if I was in the Twilight fairy tale and someone would have offered me the chance to become a veggie-vampire at 17 or 18yrs old, I would have taken it. At that point in my life, I wasn’t a Christian, although, I did call myself one. I had conveniently (or so I thought) customized/picked and chose what parts of Christianity I wanted to follow and discarded everything else.

Hence, I would have did exactly what Bella did. Actually, I would have did what she did but, way sooner. There was no way I would have waited more than a year to become a vampire. I would have somehow had Edward let James’ venom take its course. I don’t know, maybe I would have stalled long enough for the venom to spread further where Edward could not suck it out. I don’t know, I would have figured something out.

I definitely, would have thrown my humanity away, like a bubble gum wrapper, never giving it a second thought. And I certainly, would not have wanted to be bothered with pesky details of living with a continuous painful thirst for human blood for the rest of my would-be immortal-like existence. Although, the painful vampirization process probably would have made me pause. But, not for long. I would have talked myself out of it. I would have thought, well these 7 people seemed to have survived/handled the very painful vampirization process in their weak conditions and some of them in their healthy conditions, surely someone as healthy as myself would not have a problem with it. Hence, in my mind, Edward/my-man would have been worth it all.

When I was 17 and 18yrs old, I also, did not want children. I wanted my man to be my best-friend and I wanted to be his best-friend too. And I wanted to have my fairy tale wedding and live happily ever after with my best-friend. Have fun, travel etc. And since, I did not value my own humanity then, it definitely would not have bothered me to put anyone else’s humanity in any kind of jeopardy (whether great or small). So I totally, understand Bella’s point of view on choosing to become a veggie-vampire for her man. All too well.

But, now, as a (real) Christian, if Bella’s original decision would have taken place, it would have been a problem for me. I would have had a different outlook of the story and it probably would not have been my favorite non-cartoonish fairy tale story ever, so far. But, thankfully, that is not what happened and Twilight is my favorite non-cartoonish fairy tale story ever, so far. My favorite cartoonish fairy tale is Disney’s Beauty and the Beast story. It’s funny, if it wasn’t for the vampire thirst and the vampire immortality characteristics/traits, the Twilight story would, almost, be like a Beauty and the Beast story or maybe like The Little Mermaid story. Except, in reverse. Because, instead of having the human change into the supernatural/magical being, the supernatural/magical being changes into a human, and all the reasons for doing so are because of the romantic love between the main couple in the story.

I know Lord of the Rings has a similar story going on but, the love story going on in Lord of The Rings is secondary to the main story of the ring and what the ring represents. The LR is more of a fairy tale with a moral story first then a fairy tale romance story second. Although, the romance story, in the LR story, is very much to my liking.

Thankfully, the way Bella became a vampire fits nicely with my Christian beliefs. :clap: However, speaking for myself, as a Christian, I did have a problem with Bella choosing to end her humanity to become a vampire. The way I see it, I know there is one Author to the Twilight Saga that’s SM but, there are two creators within the story, they are God and SM. God created the humans and SM created the shape-shifters, vampires and hybrids. Of course, Twilight being SM’s story, she can do as she wishes with any and all characters in her story. If SM wanted to, she could have had Bella become a vampire the way Bella originally intended to. But, I am glad she did not. Because, as a Christian, I believe the only one who has the right to end/change a human being’s humanity is the author/creator of one’s life. Not anyone else, not even oneself. When one ends their own life, it is suicide and when someone else ends your life it is homicide/murder. So for me, when SM, the author/creator of Bella, created an imminent death circumstance for Bella to become a vampire, this worked well with my beliefs.

Even the way Carlisle changes people is okay with me. In my opinion, he does it for medical purposes. He tries to save the person’s existence/body from what he perceives is their end. That is what doctors do, they try to save your life by preserving the body with whatever means are at their disposal. I am glad SM made him a doctor, it fits well with what I believe he is doing. Which of course, leads me to believe, SM is trying to, subtly, tell us that becoming a veggie-vampire because of a medical reason is tolerable. Speaking for myself, I agree, it is tolerable for medical purposes.

And, speaking as a Christian, I believe Carlisle and the rest of the Cullens have not, either, read or understood the New Testament of the Bible. If they would have, they would have understood, everything is forgivable, and you don’t get good with God or into heaven because of, any and all, good works you have done. You get good with God and into heaven because of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ kindly and lovingly says, “I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me”. The Bible teaches, rejection of Jesus Christ is the unforgiveable action that would keep one separated from God and banished from heaven. In my opinion, even though Carlisle has a Christian background, and even though the rest of the Cullens have good moral ethics, Carlisle and the rest of them, Bella included, did not understand what Jesus Christ/the-New-Testament was all about. So because of their lack of knowledge and awareness of the gift that is Jesus Christ, I am able to tolerate and, even accept, Carlisle’s medical reasons for changing human beings into vampire beings for the sake of preserving/prolonging their earthly existence.
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Re: Explorations

Postby Tornado » Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:38 pm

Violet Sunlight:

From what I gather most people (Christian or not) have three problems with the vampire life:

1. the human will lose contact with family members.
2. the human will lose their soul.
3. the human will want to kill people, and may slip up and actually kill one or more people.

Your issues seem to be more with two and three than with one, so this is where I will direct my response.

From what I have read in your previous posts I gather than you believe that because Bella is a human no longer that is an end to her humanity. While I understand that it is an end to her living as a human does, I don't think it correlates in relation to what the bible says about do not murder, etc. I believe that the reason the bible has the laws against murder is because it is cutting short a person's life, and therefore their opportunity to get themselves right with God. It is probably also because it ends their life in a very real way - they're dead - and takes them away from their family.

However, becoming a vampire does not accomplish this. We have established (and I think you agree) that vampires are able to go to heaven, so then the first problem is cut out because they still have time to get themselves right with God if they want to. But it does not end their life, or opportunities, or abilities - they still have access to all these things. And as for taking them away from their family - there are many things that can do that, such as a choice of marriage partner, moving to another country, etc. Contact does not have to be non-existent, even if you're a vampire (you can still write letters, etc), so I don't think that counts.

I cannot think of any other way in which the end of a human's life by changing her into a vampire is a problem in a scriptural sense. Just because Bella decides to change from one species to another does not, in my mind, contravene any of God's laws because, unlike murder, she still lives and breathes and has a life, and an opportunity to accept God. If we believe that they have souls I don't know if there really is a real objection from a biblical perspective, as I can't think of a verse in the bible that says that "ending someone's humanity" is a problem, unless it equates that ending with murder. I don't think we can consider Bella murdered for the above reasons.

The fact that vampires want to kill people is a big issue, but I think it's clear from the information in the books that this is less of a risk for someone who wants to become a vegetarian vampire if they have decided on this course themselves. Bella is able to resist from moment one because she is prepared to, whereas the others had no such preparation time. When it comes to this objection I think changing Bella voluntarily is better than changing the others the way Carlisle did. He changed them when they were unprepared. Why? To save their lives, yes, but in the process he was putting many more lives at risk due to their thirst. With this in mind is it really justified for him to do that when it puts others at risk? There is clear evidence that many more people have died as a result of his actions. He saved four people. Between them those four have killed many. So why are his actions so much better just because he did it when they were dying? Bella seems to have done better than everyone (apart from Carlisle himself) because of the preparation time she had. I think there is a clear sign that doing it voluntarily is more likely to spare humans than doing it Carlisle's way.
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