Love Triangle-Bella, Edward, Jacob

General Discussion on the Twilight Universe

Moderators: December, bac, Bronze Haired Girl, cullengirl

Forum rules
Click for Forum Rules

Re: Love Triangle-Bella, Edward, Jacob

Postby Chernaudi » Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:59 pm

I also liked Jacob in NM, but the rivalry between Jacob and Edward went too far and totally warped Jacob as a character. If Stephanie toned down that rivalry a bit, and kept Jacob a bit more in his NM state, I don't think it would be so insufferable.
Audi, Twilight, Cher, Pink Floyd, symphonic/progressive rock, KStew, RP, Bio-Booster Armor Guyver-what's not to like

Team Renesmee, Team Bella, Team Edward.

Fan fic stories: http://www.fanfiction.net/u/2192109/
User avatar
Chernaudi
Acquiring a Taste for Mountain Lion
 
Posts: 2097
Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 5:01 am
Location: Mansfield, OH, USA

Re: Love Triangle-Bella, Edward, Jacob

Postby Tornado » Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:27 am

Yeah, but it would give Team Jacob more ammunition for saying that Bella should end up with him! At least we can say, "Well, you've got to admit he's a pain in the bum and a bit self righteous!"
Image
Tornado
La Push Lover
 
Posts: 3037
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:06 pm
Location: The Land Down Under

Re: Love Triangle-Bella, Edward, Jacob

Postby RebeccaCullen » Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:40 am

Tornado wrote:
Emmettroselover wrote:I actually liked Jacob in New Moon.


So did I. I felt a little sorry for him, actually, because Bella was using him. And I got that he was going through something horrible, and of course he would blame the Cullens for it. Why wouldn't he? They were the ones who triggered this change. It seemed fair enough to me.


But the Cullen's were gone for months before Jacob changed. It wasn't until the movie night with Mike and Bella did the change happened so I never understood his change or many of the others that changed after the Cullen's left until their return later in the book because there was no explanation given or their hatred towards the Cullen's and vampires in general.

The only thing that comes to mind as to why so many changed after the Cullen's left it that the wolf magic did register that there were vamp's in the area, hence the change of Sam and the two or three others, but knew that they were the Cullen's so the number was kept relatively small but when the Cullen's left, the only one's left to protect the area was the pack and more changed. That's the only thing that makes sense for Jacob to change, IMO.


Tornado wrote:
Emmettroselover wrote:Being in Jacob's POV did not help anything.


Yes, that was enormously difficult for me, too. The whole situation was hard enough to deal with without having to see it through Jacob's biased, resentful, bitter eyes.


Reading Bella's pregnancy through Jacob's bitter view is one of the reasons I don't like Renesmee. Had Jacob been a lot more netural or had the second 1/3 of the book been written from a neutral POV (like Jasper`s), Renesmee would have been a lot easier for me to swallow.

Just like Jacob imprinting on Renesmee would have been a little less creepy for me had NM and EC not happened, and had SM not insisted that Bella and Jacob fell in love, and his role in her life wasn`t as shoved down my throat as it was in BD.
Image
User avatar
RebeccaCullen
Hanging Up on Jessica
 
Posts: 630
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:15 pm
Location: Surrey BC

Re: Love Triangle-Bella, Edward, Jacob

Postby Tornado » Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:22 am

RebeccaCullen wrote:But the Cullen's were gone for months before Jacob changed. It wasn't until the movie night with Mike and Bella did the change happened so I never understood his change or many of the others that changed after the Cullen's left until their return later in the book because there was no explanation given or their hatred towards the Cullen's and vampires in general.


Jacob says in the book (and I think it's mentioned in the guide as well) that once the gene is triggered by the presence of vampires during the tribe members' adolescence, the change takes place. Sam had already changed before the Cullens had left, as had Paul and Jared. Even at the prom Bella notices how much Jacob has grown, so it's clear that the gene has already been triggered in him a few months before the Cullens leave.

I don't think there needs to be much explanation about why the pack hates vampires. They exist to protect their tribe, and other humans, from being murdered by vampires. Even though the Cullens profess that they don't kill humans, and Carlisle initiates the treaty, this doesn't mean that they're going to trust that these vampires are going to be able to stick to their pact not to kill humans. Jacob says as much when he first tells the story about the Cullens to Bella. There's always an element of danger around the "cold ones", so the hatred that they feel towards the Cullens and any other vampires is understandable. They're all tarred with the same brush as far as the pack is concerned: they're dangerous killers.
Image
Tornado
La Push Lover
 
Posts: 3037
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:06 pm
Location: The Land Down Under

Re: Love Triangle-Bella, Edward, Jacob

Postby RebeccaCullen » Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:59 am

Tornado wrote:I don't think there needs to be much explanation about why the pack hates vampires. They exist to protect their tribe, and other humans, from being murdered by vampires.


The thing is though, when the very first one gained the power to shift it was because one of their own betrayed them.Their shifting had nothing to do with vampires initially, and that makes their blame on the Cullen`s misplaced in my mind.

I get why they don't trust vampires because of the ones that attacked their tribe all those years ago, but that still doesn't make their anger towards the Cullen's justified especially when the likes of Laurent and Victoria/newborn army are concerned. I mean, if it weren't for Jasper's military training and teaching the pack to better handle newborn vamps, they would have died if they alone tried to protect Bella because Victoria wasn't going to stop until either one was of them dead. Not to mention, had the Cullen's not been around, none of them would have transformed and nomads like Laurent, and Victoria might have killed more people in the area then they already had.
Image
User avatar
RebeccaCullen
Hanging Up on Jessica
 
Posts: 630
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:15 pm
Location: Surrey BC

Re: Love Triangle-Bella, Edward, Jacob

Postby Emmettroselover » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:15 am

Even in the legends of the cold ones, it was mentioned that the Cullens outnumbered the wolves when they arrived. They had no reason to create a treaty and could have easily taken them out, but they did not, so that is why it is annoying that the wolves spew so much hate toward the Cullens. Plus, when they arrived again in Forks, a lot of wolves did not change. Sam and a couple of others changed, but Jacob and the others did not change until they left the area. That is what confuses me about SM's logic. If the pack hates all vampires, no matter who they are, and the gene is triggered when they feel like a threat is coming, why did only Sam change when seven vampires came to Forks two years before Bella did and why did the others like Jacob start to phase once they were gone? It is her story and yet the logic behind it seems to have holes in it, same with Alice's power though. If it is the threat to the area, then would seven vampires not be enough reason to start phasing like crazy to protect your people?

Like it was already mentioned, Jacob's anger and change started before the Cullens even came back so it is hard to believe that all of his anger stems from Edward or the Cullens. How can you blame someone that is not even there? He was angry and all over Mike as well, a simple human boy. SM did mention that the temperamental stuff was something that happened when they started phasing so while Jacob became even more temperamental and bitter once Edward was back, that anger was there before the Cullens even returned.

I understood why Jacob was worried about Bella having sex with Edward, but my point was why even come in the first place? At no point had Jacob shown that he could be noble enough to let her happiness be the priority over his, so it seemed inevitable to me that he was going to lose it when he showed up because nothing in his past behavior seemed to prove otherwise. Plus, he is the one that was trying to be smug and make a point by mentioning that she was not going to have sex, she just corrected him. That happened even in Eclipse though. Bella would fall into that trap because he would start asking questions he did not really want the answers to and instead of just keeping quiet, she would trust him enough to tell him the truth. Then she would wonder why she did. It annoyed me at the reception because Jacob did not have to show up. If he could not put on his big boy pants and suck it up, then he should not have showed up. Instead, he almost ruined a really good day for her, someone he cared about, and that was just ridiculous to me. That is also when I realized just how out of touch with reality Jacob truly was. He loved Bella, but was not willing to sacrifice his happiness for hers like Edward was. That was a big difference between the two. It would kill Edward to let her go, but if she really wanted to be with Jacob, he would have let her go. He also proved that when he left in NM, deciding that her safety was too important to risk. Edward made mistakes, but his intentions were noble unlike Jacob's.

@Tornado, your comment cracked me up. Yes, you are right about the Team Jacob thing. At the very least we can say that he was being a pain in the butt. I never understood why he felt so self righteous though and I laughed when Bella even called him out on that. He seriously thought he was normal and that she should not be with a monster. The guy turned into a dog when he got angry and could easily harm her.....Emily is an example of that.....that is not normal, so yea I guess in that case she should have been with Mike if she went by Jacob's logic. Plus it was weird how ignorant and prejudice he and the pack were. They were upset with the Cullens for making them change, but it is in their genes, their genetics. The Cullens did not have a choice in the matter to be what they were and yet Jacob acted like they planned the whole thing just to get at him. It was like get over yourself buddy.
Image
User avatar
Emmettroselover
Jump Starting Bella's Truck
 
Posts: 179
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:25 pm
Location: Jasper's Old Hunting Grounds

Re: Love Triangle-Bella, Edward, Jacob

Postby corona » Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:38 pm

As far as the frequency of the wolf changing and the circumstances, I agree that the logic was a little shaky.

As to the wolf pack's attitude towards vampires, it is understandable since the vast majority are killers. The Cullens are different, but they still didn't want them around.

Animosity towards the Cullens was almost certainly due to the disruption they caused. That was no big deal for someone like Quil, who actually liked the whole thing. But I'm sure Sam had a big influence on the pack, and his experience was that their presence caused him to harm Leah first, and then Emily.

That DOES change though, after EC. Breaking Dawn begins to show the wolf pack with a new understanding. Sam even accepts that Bella is making her own informed choice when the entire wolf pack assumes she is undergoing her change.

Jacob actually leads the way on that at the end of EC. He personally gives Bella a pass and even states he is willing to defend her choice against his own wolf pack.

But then, when he finds out that Bella wants to have a real honeymoon while she is still human, he completely rescinds the pass he granted her. The fact that she wasn't killed didn't matter. The fact that Sam gives Bella and the Cullens a pass didn't matter either. Jacob still wanted to kill Bella's husband.

Emmettroselover wrote:That is also when I realized just how out of touch with reality Jacob truly was. He loved Bella, but was not willing to sacrifice his happiness for hers like Edward was. That was a big difference between the two. It would kill Edward to let her go, but if she really wanted to be with Jacob, he would have let her go. He also proved that when he left in NM, deciding that her safety was too important to risk. Edward made mistakes, but his intentions were noble unlike Jacob's.


I totally agree.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
User avatar
corona
Ignoring Renee's E-Mails
 
Posts: 715
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:37 pm
Location: Leah’s hideaway

Re: Love Triangle-Bella, Edward, Jacob

Postby Chernaudi » Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:44 pm

I do have to agree with ELR and Corona. Jacob was a pain and he at times felt that the change and such was almost a conspiracy against him, like he watched some Oliver Stone movies a few too many times. Fact is that sort of ignores the fact that it would happen eventually--it's genetically programmed, after all.

I also don't agree with how much of a thorn in the side the Jacob became to Bella and Edward when he realized that he was fighting a losing battle. It's like how Adolf Hitler, demented by his own paranoia and his being strung out on meth by one of his own doctors by 1945, sent his Luftwaffe, out numbered, out gunned and out fought, to be essentially massacred by 8th Air Force Mustangs and Thunderbolts, and RAF Spitfires and Tempests during USAAF and RAF daylight bombing operations against the German War Industry.

I see a similar (but obviously less extreme) fatalism with Jacob there.

Edward make mistakes and BS'd Bella, like when he left in New Moon, and even though I didn't agree with that, at least his intentions were noble, and he'd give up all to protect Bella. Jacob may have a similar capacity to do the same for Bella, but I always felt that in EC and such that there'd likely be some ulterior motive behind it, too. Jacob just doesn't seem quite as noble as Edward does.
Audi, Twilight, Cher, Pink Floyd, symphonic/progressive rock, KStew, RP, Bio-Booster Armor Guyver-what's not to like

Team Renesmee, Team Bella, Team Edward.

Fan fic stories: http://www.fanfiction.net/u/2192109/
User avatar
Chernaudi
Acquiring a Taste for Mountain Lion
 
Posts: 2097
Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 5:01 am
Location: Mansfield, OH, USA

Re: Love Triangle-Bella, Edward, Jacob

Postby RebeccaCullen » Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:08 pm

Emmettroselover wrote:That is also when I realized just how out of touch with reality Jacob truly was. He loved Bella, but was not willing to sacrifice his happiness for hers like Edward was. That was a big difference between the two. It would kill Edward to let her go, but if she really wanted to be with Jacob, he would have let her go. He also proved that when he left in NM, deciding that her safety was too important to risk. Edward made mistakes, but his intentions were noble unlike Jacob's.


And that's one of the many reasons why I think Edward's the better choice for Bella. At no point did I ever get the impression that he would let Bella be happy with Edward, especially with how Jacob acted on Bella's wedding day.


Chernaudi wrote:Edward make mistakes and BS'd Bella, like when he left in New Moon, and even though I didn't agree with that, at least his intentions were noble, and he'd give up all to protect Bella. Jacob may have a similar capacity to do the same for Bella, but I always felt that in EC and such that there'd likely be some ulterior motive behind it, too. Jacob just doesn't seem quite as noble as Edward does.


Isn't an ulterior motive pretty much how Jacob forced got Bella to kiss him in EC just before he went to fight the newborns? Kiss me or I'll get myself killed even though I'm not actually going to do it, I just don't want your vampire to mess me up.
Image
User avatar
RebeccaCullen
Hanging Up on Jessica
 
Posts: 630
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:15 pm
Location: Surrey BC

Re: Love Triangle-Bella, Edward, Jacob

Postby Chernaudi » Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:25 pm

I think that Jacob would "want" something from Bella before he did anything like the stuff that Edward would willing do for her for nothing.

Doesn't the event you mentioned sort of prove that? I think it sort of does. Again, I just don't think that Jacob is as purely noble as Edward is, and that Jacob would "want" something in return. He seems a bit more "greedy" (if that's the right word) than Edward.
Audi, Twilight, Cher, Pink Floyd, symphonic/progressive rock, KStew, RP, Bio-Booster Armor Guyver-what's not to like

Team Renesmee, Team Bella, Team Edward.

Fan fic stories: http://www.fanfiction.net/u/2192109/
User avatar
Chernaudi
Acquiring a Taste for Mountain Lion
 
Posts: 2097
Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 5:01 am
Location: Mansfield, OH, USA

PreviousNext

Return to Quench Your Thirst

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests