Love Triangle-Bella, Edward, Jacob

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Re: Love Triangle-Bella, Edward, Jacob

Postby corona » Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:47 pm

Chernaudi wrote:Edward make mistakes and BS'd Bella, like when he left in New Moon, and even though I didn't agree with that, at least his intentions were noble, and he'd give up all to protect Bella. Jacob may have a similar capacity to do the same for Bella, but I always felt that in EC and such that there'd likely be some ulterior motive behind it, too. Jacob just doesn't seem quite as noble as Edward does.


You know, the thing that got me in Eclipse was his final talk with Bella. There was still a lot of bitterness there, but he is finally acknowledging that Bella has made a fully informed decision. At least there was that, and he ended up giving her the best wedding present she could have ever wanted, which was his acceptance. And he also cleans up a little of his prior remarks by letting her know that he will not be her enemy when she changes, and that he will take her side against his own wolf pack, if necessary.

The most he could do on her wedding day was showing up and reaffirming what he promised in EC. That was it, and it would have meant more to her than anything else, and he knew that. Bella is delirious with joy that everyone she loves is at her wedding. And Jacob's response is to say it wasn't quite as sad as he thought it was going to be (huh?), and don't worry, he isn't there to make her feel guilty (places her hand on his beating heart), and then we all know how that scene finally ended.

Chernaudi wrote:I see a similar (but obviously less extreme) fatalism with Jacob there.


I think you stated earlier that this obsession of Jacob's should have been allowed to die with dignity. That's a very good way of putting it. I have a variety of epithets that I think fit Jacob well, but I can't post them here; "jerk" just doesn't have the visceral impact I am looking for.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Love Triangle-Bella, Edward, Jacob

Postby Tornado » Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:09 pm

corona wrote:The most he could do on her wedding day was showing up and reaffirming what he promised in EC. That was it, and it would have meant more to her than anything else, and he knew that. Bella is delirious with joy that everyone she loves is at her wedding. And Jacob's response is to say it wasn't quite as sad as he thought it was going to be (huh?), and don't worry, he isn't there to make her feel guilty (places her hand on his beating heart), and then we all know how that scene finally ended.


I think this was his intention in coming. He did not intend to make a mess when he came to the wedding, but wanted to make her day special because he knew she wanted her there (she'd been bugging the pack constantly, trying to make sure he was okay). It's just that, once he got there and heard of the risk she was going to take, he lost it, which is perfectly consistent with his impulsive character, not to mention his uncontrollable werewolf temper. He shouldn't have gone certainly (the members of the pack out there in the bushes watching him were testament to that), but he went with good intentions. He just did the usual Jacob thing and lost it. And hearing what Edward was planning to do with Bella while she was still human reignited the bitterness.

While the initial change of the tribe into wolves was triggered by tribal problems, later on they were triggered by vampires. This is one of the problems with adapting an existing legend to suit your story. I believe that the Taha Aki story is a real Quileute legend??? (not sure!), but SM had to adapt it to include vampires. That's why the initial trigger is not vampire-related, but she made the mythology include a vampire trigger. And it is the Cullens who trigger it, it's just that the trigger fires when the subject is a certain age. Some of them were a little too young to actually be at the transforming stage by the time the Cullens left, but the Cullens were around long enough to set things in motion. Sam, Paul and Jared were already wolves by the time they left. Jacob, Quil and Embry were growing like crazy, so they were going to start phasing soon, even though the Cullens weren't there anymore. The gene had already been triggered. That's why they were growing so fast. And there is certainly reason to believe that it is the Cullens presence that causes it, because in Eclipse they have more werewolves than they ever had. Why? Because there's a nice big coven of seven vampires sitting just off their land. It's the biggest pack they've ever had, because there are more vampires (as Quil Sr remarks, they tend to bring others as well) around for a longer time than ever before.
Last edited by Tornado on Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Love Triangle-Bella, Edward, Jacob

Postby Chernaudi » Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:21 pm

corona wrote:You know, the thing that got me in Eclipse was his final talk with Bella. There was still a lot of bitterness there, but he is finally acknowledging that Bella has made a fully informed decision. At least there was that, and he ended up giving her the best wedding present she could have ever wanted, which was his acceptance. And he also cleans up a little of his prior remarks by letting her know that he will not be her enemy when she changes, and that he will take her side against his own wolf pack, if necessary.

The most he could do on her wedding day was showing up and reaffirming what he promised in EC. That was it, and it would have meant more to her than anything else, and he knew that. Bella is delirious with joy that everyone she loves is at her wedding. And Jacob's response is to say it wasn't quite as sad as he thought it was going to be (huh?), and don't worry, he isn't there to make her feel guilty (places her hand on his beating heart), and then we all know how that scene finally ended.


It would've been nice if Jacob could see that Bella was making her own informed choice sooner. That could've spared a lot of bitterness. It also would've helped if Bella was more firm in making her stance known instead of seeming to be indecisive. That's where I think the opinion of her being weak or wishy-washy comes from--the fact that she doesn't politely but firmly make her position known. But even at that, Jacob would've done Bella and Edward--and himself!--a lot of good by letting it go. He didn't have to agree with Bella's decision, but he should've at least have respected it and understood it sooner than he did.

Chernaudi wrote:I see a similar (but obviously less extreme) fatalism with Jacob there.


corona wrote:I think you stated earlier that this obsession of Jacob's should have been allowed to die with dignity. That's a very good way of putting it. I have a variety of epithets that I think fit Jacob well, but I can't post them here; "jerk" just doesn't have the visceral impact I am looking for.


Jacob just seemed to take this like his best friend had died, or had left and that he'd never see Bella again, when if anything Bella wanted to keep that door open. His own stubbornness and that "fatalism" that I'm referring to as far as trying to get something he couldn't have almost put an end to that whether or not his intentions were good or not. Granted, Bella could've acknowledged earlier that Jacob had romantic feelings for her and politely but firmly explain to him that she loved him, but Edward was always her soul mate. For better or worse, Bella had noble intentions, but, for better or worse, she just couldn't get her point across because she was afraid of hurting either or both Edward and Jacob.
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Re: Love Triangle-Bella, Edward, Jacob

Postby Tornado » Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:24 pm

Very good points, Chernaudi.
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Re: Love Triangle-Bella, Edward, Jacob

Postby Chernaudi » Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:23 pm

And then there's this, and it's been said before, but it bears repeating: If Bella was really Jake's match, he'd have imprinted on her. He didn't, and he tried at least a couple of time if I'm correct in EC, and all attempts to force an imprint failed.

I do find it odd but worth while to point his out, that Bella and Jacob are more like Kristen and Taylor are in real life. Bella loves Jacob like a brother, while Kristen and Taylor have a similar friendship on and off set. I'm not saying that Bella and Jacob don't love each other, or that Bella didn't love Jacob, but it wasn't the "right type" of love for a healthy romantic relationship. For whatever reason, Jacob couldn't see that and thus be able to stay in Bella's life. Maybe if Bella explained it to Jacob that way, it might have gotten though to him. But never the less, his stubbornness, one track mind, and almost fatalistic fight to try and gain Bella as his girlfriend was still off putting and annoying.
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Re: Love Triangle-Bella, Edward, Jacob

Postby Tornado » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:33 pm

Chernaudi wrote:And then there's this, and it's been said before, but it bears repeating: If Bella was really Jake's match, he'd have imprinted on her. He didn't, and he tried at least a couple of time if I'm correct in EC, and all attempts to force an imprint failed.


Yes, I've said that at quite a few sites, with varying responses from Team Jacob fans!

Chernaudi wrote:I do find it odd but worth while to point his out, that Bella and Jacob are more like Kristen and Taylor are in real life. Bella loves Jacob like a brother, while Kristen and Taylor have a similar friendship on and off set. I'm not saying that Bella and Jacob don't love each other, or that Bella didn't love Jacob, but it wasn't the "right type" of love for a healthy romantic relationship.


Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. I loved the way Kristen bounded up to Taylor at the MTV Movie Awards and punched him in the arm! It was exactly how I'd expect Bella to act with Jacob ... although perhaps Bella would be slightly less aggressive!

Chernaudi wrote: For whatever reason, Jacob couldn't see that and thus be able to stay in Bella's life. Maybe if Bella explained it to Jacob that way, it might have gotten though to him. But never the less, his stubbornness, one track mind, and almost fatalistic fight to try and gain Bella as his girlfriend was still off putting and annoying.


You know, one thing I would like to ask SM is if Jacob would have fought so hard to stop Bella going through the change if it had been Mike Newton that she didn't realise she was in love with, instead of him. Admittedly, Mike has his own issues, but he's essentially a nice kid too. Would Jake have fought so hard to keep Bella from joining Edward if Mike was to be the beneficiary? I think he might have still fought it because of the vampire element, but I can't imagine him fighting quite so hard on someone else's account.
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Re: Love Triangle-Bella, Edward, Jacob

Postby RebeccaCullen » Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:46 am

Chernaudi wrote:And then there's this, and it's been said before, but it bears repeating: If Bella was really Jake's match, he'd have imprinted on her. He didn't, and he tried at least a couple of time if I'm correct in EC, and all attempts to force an imprint failed.


*nods head in agreement* I think if Bella and Jacob were truly meant to be, he would have imprinted on her after the first time he changed but didn't.

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Re: Love Triangle-Bella, Edward, Jacob

Postby Emmettroselover » Sat Sep 03, 2011 2:53 pm

Once I read about imprinting and realized that Jacob had not done that with Bella, I really dismissed him as a true love. I know that there are different types of love and all that stuff but I thought of two things that made me not want her with Jacob. One, she had a true love with Edward that could be described like other vampires with their mates and two, even if she chose Jacob at some point and Edward did not come back, Jacob could imprint and Bella would be left behind. I loved when Edward mentioned that in the tent because it was so true, but as usual, Jacob dismissed any facts so that he could keep holding on to whatever sense of hope he felt to win Bella over.
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Re: Love Triangle-Bella, Edward, Jacob

Postby RebeccaCullen » Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:35 pm

Part of me wonders what would have happened had Jacob imprinted on Bella after Edward left. I mean, would he have pushed himself even harder on Bella, especially once Edward and the others returned, to be with him or would he have respected her wishes as his imprint and stayed in the friend zone and let her and Edward be?

I read this one-shot where Jacob had three wishes and on his third wish he wished to imprint on Bella and he did and he stayed in the friend zone, respecting that Bella loved Edward. He went looking for Edward because that was what Bella wanted and brought Edward home for Bella and died, I think, in the process of bringing him home (Jacob was dead when the story ended, and was bitter over it, meh).
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Re: Love Triangle-Bella, Edward, Jacob

Postby Tornado » Sat Sep 03, 2011 5:49 pm

Imprinting, as I understand it, happens when that person is your soulmate, and the relationship is meant to be. I found it interesting to read Emily's perspective on the imprinting in the official guide. From the sounds of it, she had as much trouble keeping away from Sam as he did from her.

I think if Jacob had imprinted on Bella then her love for Edward would not have been what we know it was, even from the beginning of their relationship, because her ideal match was Jacob, not Edward. Her character would have had to be different in order to accommodate that. So, although she may have had a relationship with Edward, it would not have been the be-all end-all relationship that it was, and the draw when she had met Jacob originally, even before he started phasing, probably would have been greater. Certainly, once he had imprinted, I think it would have been difficult for her to want to spend time with Edward once he had returned if Jacob had imprinted on her.

I was reading BD again last night, and was looking at what little we know about the way Renesmee feels about Jacob. It's clear she does think he belongs to her, so I think that imprinting is merely the outward expression of what would have happened between two people anyway.
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