Spoilers and Early Reactions

Discussion of the Twilight Saga: Breaking Dawn 1

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Re: Spoilers and Early Reactions

Postby Tornado » Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:24 am

Jacobs girl, I'm pretty sure the line "as long as we both shall live" was in there, and said by Bella, as per the trailer.
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Re: Spoilers and Early Reactions

Postby Jacobs-girl » Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:46 pm

Tornado wrote:Jacobs girl, I'm pretty sure the line "as long as we both shall live" was in there, and said by Bella, as per the trailer.


Oh yeah, of course. I remember now! Sorry, my memory really must be terrible. :oops:
"You want a nice stereo? Drive your own car"" (Bella, New Moon, ch. 1)

"They’re just cliff diving, Bella. Recreation. La Push doesn’t have a mall, you know" (Jacob, New Moon, ch. 7)
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Re: Spoilers and Early Reactions

Postby Tornado » Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:11 pm

No, you were probably just overcome by the emotion of the occasion! :D
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Re: Spoilers and Early Reactions

Postby Jazz Girl » Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:22 pm

I took me a very long time to be in a place where I could disect my reactions and thoughts about the film. this is a very good thing because I was honestly really in an emotional whirlwind about it, touched in the same way I was by Twilight. I promised the siblings of the Halfway House I would post my thoughts, so here they are, for better or worse, as it were...

Feel free to let me know what you think. And, I apologize in advance about the length...

So, finally my full review of Breaking Dawn;

I, by nature of my dislike of Jacob and his angst, am not a fan of the opening scene. I don’t like the importance that it places on Jacob’s reactions and feelings. The reactions of Charlie and Renee are perfect, though.

Bella, Alice and her shoe practice was so cute to me. I do have to wonder how hard it was for Kris to pretend NOT to know how to walk in heels like that.

Edward’s flashback really just worked for me. I really liked that we finally got to see what was just forgotten for three movies and that is why and how Edward sees himself the way he does, giving a deeper context to so many of his moments in the films. The moments in Bella’s room before and after were just so sweet, and I do love how Bella brought it back around in telling him to see what he has and where he is now and how that helps her. It brings what she says at the end of Eclipse full circle. And the bachelor party moment… LOVED IT!!! Love that we finally get to see the relationship between the three of them as brothers.

The nightmare was an interesting change from the novel. Completely understandable in how they set it. We didn’t have any background on the immortal children, so they really couldn’t go there. And, it completely played on both her wedding fears and the conversation that both she and Edward had just finished about being a vampire. Also, I thought that wedding dress was just as beautiful. Although, the first time I saw it, I have to admit I thought she was having a nightmare about showing up to the wedding naked. :lol:

The exchange between Bella and Rosalie during the wedding preparations was very interesting. I so wish they would have followed it just a little more. Billy Burke is just awesome in a can with his dry wit and perfect timing. Although, I will say, I think he made himself a few enemies with the crack on Renee’s age. There was A LOT of hissing from the audience all four times I’ve gone now.

The wedding was just… A. MAZ. ING! I absolutely LOVED it. From the moment you see her standing at the door and those nerves are firing. As she walks down the aisle and you can hear Turning Page… GAH!!! Brings me to tears EVERY TIME because of the absolute connection of that song to Edward and his worship of his wife. And there is absolutely no greater moment for me in that film than when she finally meets his eyes, truly SEES him at the end of the aisle and the change is just absolute. The vows… beautiful. I personally loved the way they did the vows with Flightless Bird underneath. It was almost a way of reconfirming the commitment that they made to each other in that gazebo.

I am kind of torn about the kiss, though. Obviously, I love it because it is perfectly them, with the rest of the world falling away completely. But, I think BC might have used it to replace the dance between them, and I HATE that we miss that, as well as the conversation between them in those moments. I really did want that moment when Edward makes her see herself in the window reflection and she starts to see how beautiful she is. Plus, yeah, dog dance and no groom dance equals miffed Caryn.

The toasts… Oh holy hell, the toasts. One thing that I absolutely ADORE about the way BC presented the wedding is it is so normal. It has everything any other wedding would have, including those cringeworthy moments when, as a bride or groom, you are literally praying for the world to just stop turning *coughReneecough*. And, again, Charlie…. :rotfl: “I’m a cop and I know things…. Like how to hunt someone to the ends of the earth…. And I own a gun.” But Edward’s toast… I absolutely… literally my heart just smiles when I hear it.

Most of you know me well enough by now to know that I rather hate the mongrel interlude at the wedding for so very many reasons. But, in this case, the impression we get of just how close Bella and Jacob are is just wrong. In the novel, yes, she’s happy to see him. But, they’re almost making out at one point!! That crossed a line for me. I also really dislike how Kris plays Bella’s anger over Jacob’s dismissal of her honeymoon. In the film, it’s almost as if she’s apologizing for it… I don’t know. I recognize that my hatred in general of that whole moment might interfere with my impression of it in the film. Not to mention, just one more time when Edward’s protective nature is weakened. In the book, he comes in ready to take Jacob down, he’s angry with him. In the movie, it comes off more as just being worried about making a scene and I hate that. Musically, I will say, I’m so glad at the way they did it. The music is played absolutely as if it is coming from the main dance floor, so it’s barely audible. It makes it much easier not to hate Northern Lights or Neighbors. I do need to go back again (damn the luck) to make sure, but I do think I hear It Will Rain during that time as well, but I am not sure.

And now we’re on to the honeymoon… Holy Gods!! Absolutely LOVED every bloody minute of it!! The utter bliss and joy we see from both of them… I love the moments in Rio, just getting swept up in the moment. I didn’t find myself nearly as taken out of the moment by the music during Bella’s human moments. I’m not sure why it played out differently on the screen than it did when we saw those scenes earlier. The music didn’t distract me nearly as much and I did laugh out loud when she was going through the suitcase.

The moment she stepped on that beach… good gods my heart was pounding. Llovera in those moments was absolutely perfect, feeding into the tension just a little but underpinning the entire scene with a sensuality that was just beautiful. Ummm… WetRobWard… yeah, don’t need to elaborate any more on that…

I do have to say, I kind of love the way BC played with us a little. Those moments in the water were just intensely passionate and when the scene switched to the two of them in bed, sweet mother of the gods, I was breathless. It was so beautiful, absolutely passionate and erotic in just the right way. And, I LOVE LOVE LOVE the way he played the headboard moment, with Bella bringing Edward back to them when she saw him getting lost in his head for letting his strength go. PERFECT.

Bill, you nasty tease with your fade-to-black!!! At the midnight premiere, there were A LOT of hisses and murmurs after that. Thankfully, I’d been well prepared for that moment.

When Bella wakes and looks around at the destruction… WOW!! But, yeah, did you notice the little internal fistbump smirk on her face? Priceless.

And then we get the rest of the story!! Just have to say, I love the way they did it, showing so much passion and intensity between them. It was gorgeous. And the full use of Turning Page?? Talk about setting a scene and perfectly completing a moment!!!

The bruises and the moment he cut her off were handled very well. It was clear why he was upset and how it could have happened, but the way that Kris played them off was the perfect answer to anyone who questioned it.

The seduction… Oh. Hot. Damn!!! That was absolutely hysterical! Poor Edward didn’t know what hit him. The playfulness between the two of them was absolutely adorable. From Now On fit perfectly with the vibe of those scenes, as well. I have to say, I absolutely love the cliff jumping. It was a very interesting little tie-in, don’t you think?

The change to the scene of the wolves on the beach was a bit jarring, but it was really well done. I like the addition of that scene because it does go a long way to explain a good many things that have been, here-to-fore, glossed over.

The second love scene might actually be my favorite of the two. I love the way she takes charge. It almost shows an understanding of how a change in … procedure… might help them both. I do also have to say, I have a serious illness when it comes to seeing Rob’s feet! Literally, every time his bare feet are visible, I can’t help but focus on them. Someone save me!

But, back to the serious business at hand, I love the moment we get just before the fit hits the shan as it were. That quick moment when we see Bella asleep in their still-mangled bed and he is watching over her, playing with his wedding ring. There is so much that is communicated in that simple scene… *sigh*

Of course, we’d seen the scene where she figures out she’s pregnant. This for me is when Rob truly starts to shine as Edward. Don’t get me wrong, he’s amazing throughout the film. But, it is when Edward is challenged, when his entire world comes screeching to a halt that we see what Rob truly does with him, how he brings that to the screen so completely. The whole interaction really plays out so amazingly. From the conversation with Carlisle on the phone, to Bella’s reaction and acceptance of what is happening, Edward whirling around in the background and then his pleading with Kaure… And, I do have to say, the use of Requiem absolutely nails the mood and situation. Another perfect choice. And the way they complete that whole scenario, the stark contrast between them arriving (intimacy, closeness, happiness, and hope) and them leaving (complete separation, anxiety and fear) just kills me.

And then we get the dog back. I will say this. I’m rather glad that MR did not feel the need to insert any scenes of Bella running to Rose or of Rose coming between Edward&Bella. I hate Rose with a fiery passion in this story and I don’t need anyone else to hate at the moment. So leaving that dynamic out of it, I was totally fine with.

The reveal scene is amazing, honestly. And, of course, it’s confirmed that I still hate Jacob’s assumption that he has ANY right to challenge Edward or call him out on ANYTHING. But, it is amazingly true to the book, so I expected it. It’s kind of as I said, though. Seeing it on screen, brought to life in a way, just makes it that much more infuriating. But, I digress. I think likely one of my favorite moments in the film, and also one of the ones that tore my heart out completely, was when Jacob is pretending that he has any right to have an opinion and is telling Carlisle that he has to “get it out of her”. In that moment when Bella says with such conviction, “No, it’s not his decision. It’s not any of yours,” I want to both stand and applaud and shake her until she rattles. And, that reaction proves exactly how perfect Kris was in that moment.

The confrontation between Edward and the mongrel is the perfect showcase for the difference between the two. All Jacob can focus on is himself, how he feels, what he’s losing. Edward’s only concern is his wife, his only focus is keeping her alive. I’m rather torn about removing or leaving in the whole puppy offer… Part of me understands why and part of me says that it is the best demonstration of exactly how desperate Edward was and taking it out is to take away from that. I’m still up in the air.

Jacob’s conversation with Bella… I was a little… put off by. There was actually a moment when he sounded exactly like James during the ballet-studio scene. In all honesty, it totally brings home to me how much I don’t like Jacob and see him as nothing but a predator in her life.

The pack meeting scene is one I both really like and cringe completely at. It starts out really well, with the pack voices growing louder and louder in the mongrel’s head and then when the pack come together, at the very first, it make sense with everyone talking over each other, all their voices overlap. But, and I hate that this happens because this is such a critical scene, it crosses the line into cartoon-land, reminding me completely of the scene Drums of War from Pocahontas. It isn’t really how they try to pull off the scene, it is the effects that they use on the voices that take them too far. Chaske Spencer especially needs no help in making his voice commanding. I see what they were trying to do. They are bringing to life the double-timbre that is described as the alpha voice in the novels. But, it is one of the things that is very hard to pull off in the films and it really didn’t work.

The vigil by Bella’s side is heartbreaking and the continued use of Cold underpinning all of those moments just takes you to a place of desolation. Particularly in the scene where we see her body as she gets ready for the bath. It is utterly terrifying. And, I must say, kudos to Alexandre Patsavas for chosing the lyric he did for that moment. “Sing for the lion and lamb; their hearts are hunting”. Could you choose anything more perfect for that moment?

The scene that I was most concerned about, the argument between Bella&Edward actually turned out to be one of my favorites of the film. I said all along that it was more the OOC nature that really bothered me. But, the way that Rob owned that scene left no doubt that what he said came straight from Edward’s heart. The way he laid out for her everything that she tried to ignore, tried to pretend wasn’t also going to happen was shattering. Bella was, until that moment, living in a bit of a fantasy land that, once she gave birth and was changed, everything would be perfect. But, in refusing to acknowledge that there were other consequences and possibilities, she comes off very selfish and that needed to be acknowledged. And, of course, the resolution of that scene in Edward’s apology to her BEFORE hearing the baby’s thoughts brings it full circle and makes it just…real.

The scene between Jacob, Carlisle and Esme is one that is so full of jaw-clenching for me that it’s almost painful. When Jacob is so chagrinned, shocked, that they were sacrifice themselves for her, his absolute delusion that they couldn’t possibly love her appropriately is just asinine! So when he goes from chagrin to making it completely about him and how he knows what to do to save everyone, I just want to scream.

I really did, though, like the addition of the first confrontation scene with the wolves. We know that, in the novel, they do in fact leave to retrieve supplies and to hunt. Assuming that they slipped past the wolves undetected and unchallenged is assuming the wolves are weaker and that just isn’t so. So I did appreciate that.

The conversation about the baby names is another moment that completely snaps my teeth together. Only Melissa Rosenberg could have such a complete lack of understanding of these characters that she would think that; A) Bella would just proudly say she was naming the baby Edward Jacob, and B) Edward would just smile at her as if it made all the sense in the world. In the novels, Bella is flat out dishonest about it because she at least acknowledges how wrong that truly is. She leads Edward to believe that EJ is Edward Junior. It is only in her mind during the terror of the birth that she shouts out what the name truly is. And, I’m sorry, I know that she’s written Edward as a complete doormat at times, but that moment when he just smiles at her as if it doesn’t bother him at all that she wants to name HIS son after his mortal enemy and the man who would sooner see him dead is just such complete BS and I want to wretch every time I see it.

And then we come to what is, ironically for me, the strongest part of the film. The moment when Bella’s back is broken is so jarring that it sets the tone for the scene from the beginning. I don’t really see it as as graphic or gory as it was made out to be, but it is amazingly well done and perfect for the tone of the film. Rob’s desperation and terror are just absolutely palpable and he is so perfect in these moments that just thinking about his performance is enough to bring me to tears. Anyone who tries to tell me that those moments are not wrenched from his soul will be called a blind liar to their face. Kristen’s determination and pain are also just awesome. The reprieve we get when Ness is born just wrecks me. The joy on Edward’s face, the relief and accomplishment on Bella’s… perfection.

And then the rest of hell breaks lose. I kid you not when I say that I can replay perfectly the tone and timber of Edward’s voice as he begs and pleads for everything to be okay. His franticness, his desperation, so completely different from what we always see from him… chilling. I will say, the ultimate compliment I can pay Taylor is that I want to absolutely annihilate him when he gives his little speech about how Edward deserves to live with Bella’s death. Maybe that means that he did a damn good job as his character. I honestly couldn’t tell you. I am so focused on Edward and the fact that he doesn’t even register that Jacob is speaking that I couldn’t care less about the mongrel. And as Edward begs his life to come back to him… “Come back to me, Bella, baby, please…” I can literally feel my heart shatter.

Originally, I thought that Edward leaving Bella to fight was a bit off. But, as I’ve watched it, there is nothing else he could have done. He would defend his wife and daughter with his life and, clinically, he knew that he had to give her time and space for the venom to spread, that he couldn’t risk anything disturbing that. So he goes to fight, reinforcing to himself that she will be okay by saying it out loud.

Now, the fight itself, again, I have issues. We’ve been told all along that Edward is the second strongest fighter in the Cullen clan because of his gift. If you want to try and convince me that Sam would have him on his back that fast without any resistance, I will call BS every single time. That is another dynamic of the presentation of Edward’s character that I have hated from the beginning. Edward is a strong fighter with the skills to counter-attack anyone. Yes, numbers might have gotten an advantage over him, but one lone wolf head on? No way!

As for the final piece of the confrontation, I’m so used to Jacob being made the hero that I’m almost used to it by now. Having Edward actually make the reveal to me made a lot of sense. In his wolf form, the pack would have seen the imprint immediately, but the Cullens had no way of knowing what was happening. Because Edward can read the mongrel’s mind, it was only natural for him to translate to keep his family in the know and safe. The stare down after, when the mongrel turns to him… oh but I can’t wait to see the resolution of that in part 2! Watching Edward introduce the mongrel’s head to the business side of a wall is going to be immensely satisfying (yes, I would have liked to have seen it in part one as we were teased to believe by the trailer, but having that scene in the opening of part 2 when Edward and the mongrel discuss the implications… Yes, and thank you!)

Now, as for overall critiques, it should surprise no one that I’m not overwhelmed by the writing of Melissa Rosenberg. But, I am, at least, really finally able to see what it is specifically that bothers me so. Outside of her outright preference for Jacob Black and the resulting enhancement of his character's dynamic and importance at the direct expense of Edward’s strength and goodness, she doesn’t complete scenes. She may write a mean tv show. I don’t know, I’m not a Dexter fan. But what she’s failed to do from the very beginning of The Saga is to complete scenes, complete dynamics and give context and understanding to things. For example, in Twilight, there is that moment just after their first kiss, when Edward has pushed himself away from Bella and he says, “I can’t ever lose control with you.” The line itself is true and we as readers know exactly why, mostly because in the book he continues his explanation. Rosenberg apparently finds no value in explanation, so she leaves it out. One more line is all it would have taken to complete the explanation and lay the groundwork for some understanding of Edward's fears. " I can't ever lose control with you. One touch, one accidental slip, and I could crush your skull when all I meant was to caress your face." BD is rampant with those moments. I mentioned a few of them; the conversation with Rose before the wedding; Bella's comment about it being noone's choice. Bella's discussion with Jake about Edward... so very many lost moments. And it is those lost dynamics and context that hinder the development of the full scene, that leave them hanging. A perfect example is the scene where Edward hears Ness for the first time. He tells us he hears the baby, that he understands that he is good and pure like his mother, and then we see him completely fine and happy and everything is hunky dory. The complete 180 makes no sense, unless like the majority of us you can insert what you know from the book which is that because Edward can hear the baby and understands that her mind is developed enough to understand, they can tell her to try and be still and they can begin to formulate a plan to safely deliver the baby before she poses a significant risk to Bella. But, we don’t get that in the film. All it would take is another minute maybe two of dialogue, an additional scene of discussion with Carlisle. But, we don’t get that because Rosenberg thinks all we need to know is that Edward is now perfectly happy his wife is dying because their child isn't a monster.

Bill Condon’s direction was very well done. Although, as I said, there were moments that made me question his concept. The performances he drew from the actors were amazing and his focus on the story and on the fans is very clear and very much appreciated. The effects used for Bella's decent into death are downright amazing and I found myself seriously concerned at times because they were so convincing that I had to question just how much Kristen gave to this role. I have to give the biggest kudos to Alexandre Patsavas and musical supervisor. When I first listened to the soundtrack, I wasn’t overwhelmed by it. There are some great songs and geat moments. But, altogether, I wasn’t completely sold. But, the way the songs are woven into the film is fantastic and really makes them come alive for me on the soundtrack.

So, there you have it.
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Re: Spoilers and Early Reactions

Postby Tornado » Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:48 pm

You asked for comments, Jazz Girl, so I will give you a couple.

I agree that I found Bella a bit too all over Jacob in their dance. I reminded myself, however, that she believes that this is probably the last time she will ever see him, so getting a little emotional and clingy, since she does love him, is probably not so unusual.

I agree with you about Rosalie. I can't stand her. She's worse than Jacob, and the less of her character we have the better, as far as I'm concerned.

As for the Edward Jacob "naming ceremony", as it were, as soon as EJ was mentioned in the book, I was quite sure that it was Edward Jacob. I never thought Edward Junior even for a moment, and if I'm clever enough to figure that out, I'm sure Edward, who is a thousand times cleverer than me, figured it out too. He probably just passed over it, although we do have to remember that he says to Jake only a few pages later that he considers him a brother of sorts, and Jacob mentions that he's sure the reason Edward doesn't hate him is because he can't hate what loves Bella, so although I'm sure he was a bit miffed about it, he probably just put up and shut up! Although maybe he was secretly glad it was a girl!

You've got to remember, too, that Edward smiling at that point was probably at BC's direction, and not necessarily in the script.

I agree too about the fight with the wolves. The excuse is probably that they hadn't fed for a while, and were weaker because of it. Also, because of the difficulties in having real actors fight with completely CGI creations, it was probably necessary to stage it in a limited way, and I think this was probably the real reason the fight looked like it did.

Also, something else in MR's defense, the cutting of scenes is something that is out of her control. We know from Eclipse that the resolutions to several of Bella and Edward's fights were in the script (because they were filmed) and were cut by the director. If a scene seems incomplete it may well have been complete in the script and filmed that way but was cut in the editing process because of time or pacing issues. Again, it is unwise to assume that she is the one responsible just because that's what you see on the screen. It may well have been BC's call and decision to cut it that way.
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Re: Spoilers and Early Reactions

Postby velvet409 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:40 am

Caryn and Lynne~

I just wanted to make a quick comment regarding the fight between the Cullens and the wolves. My impression from that scene was that the Cullens were trying not to seriously injure or kill the wolves, which is why they weren't being more aggressive. Their strategy appeared to me to be mostly defend and deflect, to keep the wolves away from the house instead of actively fighting against them. As Esme said, as far as the Cullens were concerned the treaty was still in effect, so they were trying to avoid outright war against the wolves. Although Caryn does have a point about Sam pinning Edward so easily. Highly unlikely. ;)
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Re: Spoilers and Early Reactions

Postby Tornado » Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:22 am

Yes, I agree, but, while I think that might be the excuse used, I really think it's just because having an actor fighting with CGI wolves is so difficult that it was just easier to do it that way. This technology is still brand new, after all, and I think was developed first for Eclipse, so they haven't had long to perfect it. In another ten years it will probably be heaps better, and will let them do a lot more in these fights, but that doesn't help us now.
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Re: Spoilers and Early Reactions

Postby Jazz Girl » Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:51 pm

velvet409 wrote:Caryn and Lynne~

I just wanted to make a quick comment regarding the fight between the Cullens and the wolves. My impression from that scene was that the Cullens were trying not to seriously injure or kill the wolves, which is why they weren't being more aggressive. Their strategy appeared to me to be mostly defend and deflect, to keep the wolves away from the house instead of actively fighting against them. As Esme said, as far as the Cullens were concerned the treaty was still in effect, so they were trying to avoid outright war against the wolves. Although Caryn does have a point about Sam pinning Edward so easily. Highly unlikely. ;)


Oh, I completely agree about their strategy. I think that much was obvious. They were really trying to hold them back, to give the venom time to take effect in Bella's system, and maybe to allow the wolves fear time to calm. But, Edward (again, whom we know is an accomplished fighter who has the benefit of being able to read his opponents thoughts) is also defending his wife and daughter. Pulling punches in those moments, in my opinion, not a likely option. SagaWard showed us time and again what he was not only capable but more than willing to do when anything threatened Bella. Add his newborn daughter into the mix... You see where I'm going. Hubs did bring up an interesting dynamic which hadn't occurred to me. I don't know how I feel about it, but I'll put it out there as an alternative. Edward has a very deep-set affection and sense of responsibility to the whole family. Edward is pinned just after Alice is surprised by one of the wolves and cries out (the whole surprising-Alice thing had me shaking my head, as well, but I digress). Hubs postulated that maybe Edward was momentarily distracted in checking on Alice and that is how Sam got the drop on him? I can at least see the validity here. But, again, I'm skeptical at best.
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Re: Spoilers and Early Reactions

Postby Tornado » Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:59 pm

Your hubby makes a good point. And why should we be surprised at the wolves surprising Alice? She can't see their future. As Jacob says in the books, they don't consider Alice a threat without her future vision to guide her, as is so in this case.
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Re: Spoilers and Early Reactions

Postby pennybug84 » Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:40 am

Jazz Girl: I agree w/a lot of what you wrote. One of my biggest pet peeves in the films have been the changes to some of the characters, mainly Edward & Jacob. And that was again done in BD.

I still have mixed feelings on Edward yelling at Bella. It's just so unEdward like. I guess I can understand them wanting to show how desperate he is and scared to death of loosing her. I vaguely remember him apologizing. I need to see it more than once.

And then Edward leaving Bella right after trying to save her life still kind of bugs me. He doesn't leave her side for three days. I just hope in part 2 they show more of Edward being ticked at the imprinting and not so passive. I was disappointed Edward throwing Jacob against the wall wasn't in the film. I was looking forward to him finally doing something like that.

I loved the wedding kiss. Mainly because it's like the book. They really go at it & forget the people around them. And I liked how they did the shot w/the benches empty.
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