To ~ Tornado
Please brace yourself this is AGAIN a super duper long post. But, again at least I don’t post long posts every day. Sorry.
I owe you big, for bringing this subject up for me. Like I said before, more often than not, I accept or reject something because of my Christian beliefs and, a lot of the time I consciously don’t know why, though I subconsciously know exactly why, I accept or reject something. And again, you have unlocked my sub-consciousness with your post to me, which in turn, made so many reasons come flooding into my consciousness, like a roaring river. Thank you so much.
Before, I begin, I know most of you already know, but I would like to say it again, I do NOT have a problem with the way Bella became a vampire. The way Bella became a vampire lines up nicely with my Christian beliefs. (Only one’s author/creator of one’s life has the right to end or change the format of one’s life). In my opinion, the Bella story/saga ended perfectly
. Bella was changed due to her imminent death circumstance (medical purposes) hence the ending of her human life was, in my Christian opinion, way better than what she originally had planned.
Okay, here we go. I actually don’t
have a problem with #1 or #2 of your list. I will explain:
RE: Your reason #1 ~ as you and December have pointed out, being temporarily or permanently separated from your family is normal/natural way of life. It’s sad, but normal. You are right, I have NO
problem with reason #1 of your paragraph.
RE: Your reason #2 ~ I also, have NO
problem with reason #2 of your paragraph. I believe a person canNOT lose their soul because of anything done to their body, even with their consent. As I said before, C.S. Lewis has so brilliantly said, “You don’t have a soul. You are
a soul. You have a body”. I couldn’t agree more. Of course, he gets this reasoning from the Bible.
RE: Your reason #3 ~ YES
, as a Christian, I have a problem with reason #3 of your paragraph. I would also, like to add another factor to your #3 reason. As a Christian, changing into another being without the author’s/creator’s consent is wrong too. In my opinion, we do not have clearance to change into another being of our own volition. If we did, God would have given our bodies the power to do so, from the beginning. And, thank goodness, God doesn’t, if He did, there would be NO human beings left, we would ALL be vampire beings.
Speaking for myself, it is more comfortable, as a Christian, to accept supernatural/magical beings in fairy tale, when they are born that way. Which means their author/creator gave them clearance to be so. And even, when the supernatural/magical being wants to change to a human being, again, it’s okay and right with me. This choice/decision also, lines up very nicely with my Christian beliefs/reasoning. When the author/creator of the supernatural/magical being wants to or, does change this being/creator’s-creation into a human being, means the author/creator wants to change this being into his/her own image/likeness, which of course, fits very, very, well with Christian/Biblical beliefs/reasoning. After all, the Bible teaches we ourselves are made in the image/likeness of our Creator, God.
Which brings me to the two reasons you stated in your Reason #3 ~ You stated, 1. “The human will want to kill people, and” 2. “may slip up and actually kill one or more people”. Okay, if we humans are created in the image of our Creator, God, than how can a painful, bodily-reflex/THIRST for human blood, be what God wanted for us/human-beings, His creation, made in His image/likeness? It would mean He set us up for failure from the very beginning.
The Bible teaches, “walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish”. Then it goes on to list the 17 works of the flesh and then it goes on to list the 9 Fruits of the Spirit that overcome/defeat the 17 works of the flesh. The 17 works of the flesh are mentally
/morally at work within us. And one of the 17 works of the flesh is murder. Therefore, how could the Holy Spirit help us defeat/overcome murder if it is a bodily-reflex? He can’t. He wouldn’t. It would be like the Holy Spirit trying to stop me from using the bathroom, sneezing, coughing, crying etc. The Holy Spirit canNOT do that. He has the power to stop us from doing mental immoral things, NOT stop our immoral bodily-reflexes like the vampires have. We obviously, do not have immoral bodily-reflexes and our bodily-reflexes are not capable to FREELY commit an immoral act and especially against our mental moral will. Again, another reason why a vampire being is not a human being.
Also, if God is against murder than how can He build/create us to destroy/murder each other? He can’t, He wouldn’t, He didn’t. I also, would like to say, being that we are made in God’s image/likeness is the very reason why a vampire being will never be a human being ever again. God would not build/create something to destroy Himself, and He, most certainly, would NOT build/create something to kill and destroy us. Especially, being that we are made in his image/likeness. (We on the other hand, most certainly would, could and do.) One must remember SM created/designed the vampire outfit/body, with their camouflaged beauty to lure humans to the vampire for consumption, NOT God.
But, as we well know, God is more than merciful, gracious, loving and patient with ALL of us. God made a way for the soul to be saved, even before Adam’s disobedient actions caused Adam to sin and curse himself and the whole human race which caused us all to be separated from God. God promised Adam & Eve that one day, through them (human race), a Son/Savior would come and fulfill the promise of having the payment of sin be paid and make, their and ours, sins as white as snow and make us right with God once again.
Therefore, like I said before, for the sake of the game we are playing, both
vampire beings and human beings, have souls and both
have the same rights and opportunities to a happy and prosperous earthly and eternal life. But, this does NOT change the fact that God never intended the vampire life for anyone. It just means every supernatural being in the Twilight universe, has to do what we do, make the best of their lot in life. And just because God forgives murder, doesn’t mean we should put ourselves in the path of committing it or be tempted by it. That would go against Jesus’ teachings. The Bible also says one should flee the desires/lusts of the flesh. Murder is listed as one of the lusts of the flesh. Hence, in my opinion, for a Christian, wanting to be a vampire or wanting someone else to be a vampire, of any kind (yellow eyed or red eyed) for any
reason, is against Jesus’/Biblical teachings.
Now, in the Twilight universe, if
a person does NOT
know or, is unaware
of the Christian Way/Gift, let’s say like Carlisle, (I know the books say Carlisle has a Christian background but, I really think Carlisle did not read or understand the New Testament in the Bible at all), then it would be understandably reasonable for someone like Carlisle and the Cullens, to see their existence on earth as the only option for them. Hence, prolonging their lives, and others they care about, on earth would be a priority for them, so much so, the use of their venom as a medical means, (for what they, understandably, perceive as saving someone’s life), would be a tolerated form of medical assistance/means for the dying human and, especially one that has consented to the change beforehand.
For me, venom is like a super strength IV of Chemo Therapy. For a dying cancer patient, it is vital to have the chemo therapy be administered as soon as possible. Administering the super strength chemo therapy to a dying cancer patient is, morally and medically right and just. The doctor and patient are trying to save the person’s life on earth by treated/curing the body from what ails it. Even though, Chemo Therapy kills
the good and bad bacteria of one’s body. It is necessary administer the chemo therapy to save the body and life of the dying patient. Hey, I wonder is Chemo Therapy an example where the end justifies the means? In any event, accepting venom as a means to medically help/save someone’s life on earth, when the person administering it is unaware
of everything that Jesus Christ means, lines up nicely with my Christian/Biblical beliefs. One CAN’T judge a non-believer harshly, “they know NOT, what they do”.
Now, if a person/patient is 100% healthy
, hence has zero cancer, administering a super strength IV of chemo therapy would definitely be murderous, even with the consent of the person/patient, because the person would surely die or the patient/person would certainly be seriously harmed. I would guess the harm would be permanent if not fatal.
Venom kills ALL the good and bad physical stuff that makes one human and
has the power to change the human to a (vampire) being, that now painfully craves/THIRST for the very human blood the patient/person once had and tried to heal/cure to save their existence/life on earth. Yes, the venom enhances mental/physical abilities but, the venom does NOT STOP there, it continues to change the very essence of the human being. The former human being is now immortal because of the power of venom in them. And the former human being now has a murderous THIRST for HUMAN BLOOD. God created us to live an immortal life in a moral
world with NO painful continuous murderous THIRST. God would not want us to live an immortal-like life, in a frozen-like sinful state and, in a sinful world, and separated from Him for who knew how many millenias. In my opinion, that would be horrible, sad and tragic for anyone who became a vampire, especially knowing about the GIFT God has offered us and other beings with souls.
Now, in my opinion, the veggie-vampires are not aware or don’t believe, in and/or about, the free Gift of God (Jesus Christ), so for me, it is tolerable to enjoy their vampire existence on earth. But, when and if, the day comes that the veggie-vampire becomes aware, and/or believes in and/or of, the free Gift of God, that veggie-vampire will be rightfully devastated that they will have to wait an unknowable amount of time to be joined with God. So for now, I choose to enjoy their ignorance and live in their fantasy/HEA, that ALL is better than well.
Finally, I want to respond to your last paragraph of your 12/15/11 post to me.
Just because Bella has been successful in her first 4 months as a NEWBORN vampire, that does NOT justify any future risks of changing anyone else into a veggie-vampire. Also, Bella’s success would NOT have justified a reason to change her with her consent, either. There is no way of knowing what Bella would do for the whole time she is a vampire. And as we know Alice can see things once the person has decided what to do. Alice would never know, when or if, Bella was going to make a, spur of the moment, decision to feed on a human. Carlisle has NO way of knowing what anyone is capable of doing beforehand. Hence, any reason Carlisle has to change a healthy
person into a vampire, even with their consent, is immoral and unethical and like I said many posts ago, Carlisle would be going against his oath as a doctor and, against his beliefs that the human life is sacred, if Carlisle or any other Cullen would have complied with Bella’s original request.
We need to remember Carlisle changed Edward, and Edward did great as a NEWBORN vampire, even without the fore-knowledge of what it meant to be a vampire. And I am sure Carlisle was pleased that Edward did not get angry with him for changing Edward. But, Edward unpredictably
rebelled against Carlisle’s veggie ways and became a vampire vigilante and unpredictably
did so about 10 yrs after being changed. Before, Edward became a vampire vigilante, one of the reasons, Carlisle changed Esme was because, of Edward’s success and Edward was not angry with Carlisle because of the change. Though, Esme as well was not angry with Carlisle for the change, Esme did NOT do as well as Edward, at ALL. After Esme, Carlisle had in mind to change one more person only
, and that was so Edward can have a mate. He felt he owed Edward. Hence, he was willing to take a risk/chance, one last time, with someone else without knowing beforehand what that other person would do or how they would feel about becoming a vampire. Hence, because he felt he owed Edward, when Rosalie’s circumstance opened the door to what Carlisle thought was a good idea for him and Edward. (Carlisle as Edward’s father wanted to see Edward happy.)
Carlisle unknowingly, (Carlisle did not know how angry Rosalie would be about becoming a vampire, and Carlisle did not know how successful Rosalie would be as a veggie-vampire), went forward with his plan to change dying Rosalie. Rosalie was so upset with him, Carlisle decided NOT to change anyone else. In spite of the fact that Edward and Rosalie did not have romantic feelings for each other. But, when Rosalie begged Carlisle to change dying Emmett for her. I think she even said the magic word “you owe me”, Carlisle gave in. Now ironically Emmett was NOT angry in becoming a vampire but, he did miserably as a NEWBORN veggie-vampire, and I think, but I am not sure, he did poorly a little after his NEWBORN state. In any event, the point was Carlisle was NOT going to change anyone else. And he surely was NOT going to change a healthy person, and I believe, even with their consent.
Okay, when you say, “To save their lives, yes, but in the process he was putting many more lives at risk due to their thirst. With this in mind is it really justified for him to do that when it puts others at risk?” In my Christian opinion, NO it was NOT justifiable for Carlisle to change any of them, NO matter how just he thought his reasons were. But, being that Carlisle is unaware of what God offers through Jesus Christ, it is understandably reasonable for someone in Carlisle’s position to do what he did. He had spent about 300 years by himself, he was lonely. And he was sure others could do as well as him or, would try to do as well as him, with few if any risks and/or slips. And for a while Edward proved him right. Esme however, proved him wrong. And ironically, Rosalie proved him right but, proved him wrong in gracefully accepting her vampire essence. Hence, like I said before, after Rosalie, Carlisle planned, NOT to change anyone else. But, Carlisle changed/gave Emmett for Rosalie as a gift he felt he owed her. And ironically again, Emmett gracefully accepts his vampire essence but, does the opposite of Rosalie in the risk/slip department.
Now, you say, “There is clear evidence that many more people have died as a result of his actions. He saved four people. Between them those four people have killed many. So why are his actions so much better just because he did it when they were dying?” My first reason as a Christian is, Carlisle does not know what Jesus Christ means and, my second reason is that only one’s author/creator of one’s life has the right to end/change one into another being, not anyone else, not even oneself. And my third reason is, that I see venom as a strong medicine to save the person’s body/life on earth, and I feel Carlisle feels this way too.
Also, true between the 4 people that Carlisle turned to vampires, many lives were lost due to the vampire THIRST. I don’t count Rosalie’s murders as a result of the vampire THIRST. But, I like to think those rapist will not be raping anyone else and potentially ending other lives. And Edward’s murderous THIRST/slips were done to murderers themselves. Again, I like to think, these murderers will not be murdering anyone else. In both of these cases, I like to think that many lives were saved due to Edward’s and Rosalie’s actions. Esme and Emmett were the failures/downfall of why one should NOT
change anyone to a vampire. Whether someone is mild or wild as a human, it does NOT matter the potential for evil is there. Hence, Esme’s and Emmett’s, regrettable actions, STOPPED, I believe, all the Cullens from changing future humans to vampires (Bella excluded), hence, more lives saved.
Also, if it were NOT for Carlisle’s actions and veggie way of life, would Alice/Jasper want to join Carlisle by himself? As I understand it, Alice joined the Cullens because of her vision and I believe she wanted a family and to be part of a family. And Jasper, of course, will follow Alice wherever she goes. If there is no Cullen family, what would be Alice’s motive/reason to stay with Carlisle? Maybe at first to learn the veggie way, but I think she would leave shortly after. If Alice & Jasper would NOT have joined the Cullens, wouldn’t there be many, many more deaths? (Including Bella.) Especially, in regards to Jasper? Again, Carlisle’s decision to have a family does have very good benefits and results. Although, like I said before, they all have to live with the burden/handicap of the vampire THIRST until who knows when.
Another point I want to make, just because Bella has been successful as a NEWBORN vampire, because of her preparation, that does NOT mean that it is a good reason to change anyone to a veggie-vampire. Just because it seems to spare many more humans than the way Carlisle does it. One NEVER KNOWS
what someone else is capable of or what someone else’s limits are. And one can NEVER know what the individual will in the course of their whole
vampire life. And one should not risk OTHER people’s lives to find out. Anything could happen, what if the person who consented to being a veggie-vampire changes their mind once they are a vampire? That person would be, as or more, bitter and pessimistic than Rosalie and Edward ever were. Because, they would have no one else to blame but themselves. Again, ANYTHING can happen.