Ambivalences

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Re: Ambivalences

Postby Tornado » Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:55 pm

The guide does seem to suggest, when relaying what Emily felt, that she felt something when first seeing Sam after he had phased, before he had expressed his now undying commitment to her. She is unsurprised when he breaks up with Leah. She is unsurprised when he turns up at her house the first time. Something is telling her that things have changed in a significant way, so there does seem to be a supernatural draw even on the imprintee's side, although I'd say it's far less binding and a bit more nebulous.
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Re: Ambivalences

Postby corona » Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:29 pm

Tornado wrote:The guide does seem to suggest, when relaying what Emily felt, that she felt something when first seeing Sam after he had phased, before he had expressed his now undying commitment to her. She is unsurprised when he breaks up with Leah. She is unsurprised when he turns up at her house the first time. Something is telling her that things have changed in a significant way, so there does seem to be a supernatural draw even on the imprintee's side, although I'd say it's far less binding and a bit more nebulous.


That is exactly how I read it. Over and over again Emily thinks or does something with Sam, and she doesn't know why, but she does. I think I actually counted it up once, I forgot where I ended up. Too many to be mere coincidence, SM was clearly, in my opinion, demonstrating that something was going on with the imprintee. It wasn't just a one-way ticket.

Besides Nessie, we only get one brief blurb about Jacob's sister, Rachel:

    Though she had intended to leave again soon, she was very drawn to Paul.

That is it, but there is that word again "drawn".
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Ambivalences

Postby Songbird » Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:31 pm

Could Jacob's draw (pre-nessie) to Bella perhaps be something to do with Bella's anscestry? If we're considering the earlier discussed (was that here, or in explorations?) theory of a genetic level tie between the wolf and the imprintee's genetic material, and therefore their biological family, is it possible that the fact that there was a Swan in the family trees of the wolves means that Bella shares chracteristics the Wolves are attracted to, which she then passes on to Nessie? (I'm sorry, I'm not even sure that made sense). In the guide, I noticed that one of Bella's distant relatives was married to a wolf anscestor, therefore also contributing to that wolf's DNA. (I don't remember which wolf) But given that wolves seem to imprint to either pass on the wolf gene, or to make stronger, better wolves, it would stand to reason that they would look first among those families who have passed on the gene previously. So if Bella's anscestor was married to a Quileute and together, they passed on the gene, it could be an indicator that Bella is also compatible to pass it to her children, because she would share DNA with the anscestor who passed it on before. Even distantly related people share some DNA. I'd love for Stephanie to explain it all!
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Re: Ambivalences

Postby Tornado » Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:55 pm

Yes, we were discussing that earlier. I think some of the posts relating to that were in Explorations, but some were moved here. That's the theory we are considering at the moment, whether Bella and Jacob were drawn to each other because some of the characteristics that made Jacob imprint on Nessie were in play. However, if that's the case, then Edward had some too, and Jacob certainly wasn't drawn to be best buds with him! Although that could simply have been the jealousy and natural prejudice he had. If they had both been human, perhaps things would have been different.
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Re: Ambivalences

Postby Songbird » Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:22 am

Yeah, I'd say jealousy and their prejudice against each other could have a huge effect.. Jealousy alone can blind you. You see that someone has what you want and automatically you begrudge the person who has it, convincing yourself they don't deserve it as much as you do. And the prejudice...well, look at Jacob and Nessie before she's born. Even as Jacob is drawn to Bella, he hates "the monster" she's carrying...he tells Edward to throw her out the window. It's his natural prejudice against vampires, and the fact that he thinks she killed Bella. So if he was at all drawn to Edward, I think he would still have exhibited the hatefulness towards him, just because of his feelings for Bella and against vampires.
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Re: Ambivalences

Postby Tornado » Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:13 pm

That's very true.
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Re: Ambivalences

Postby GrayceM » Wed May 02, 2012 10:58 pm

I've been looking through some of these other postings and came across this one. I'm a little behind but have some thoughts to add. These are from random posts throughout this thread. Not really in the order they were posted in. Forgive me if it's confusing.

corona wrote:In reference to prior comments about Wuthering Heights, I had always thought that that book was actually the archetype of everything SM didn’t want in her story. There are a million Wuthering Heights out there, and we all wonder why those books always end that way, and then our English Lit teacher always has to patiently explain how stories about real love are really uninteresting and how these kinds of books are based more on reality and why that is a good thing. And they certainly can be very good stories, except everyone is really disappointed and depressed at the ending. SM’s genius was giving everyone what they wanted, which is of course the worst thing to do unless you want to create a multi-billion dollar series. What a novel concept, giving the customers exactly what they wanted instead of telling them what was best for them. The whole series was an anti-Wuthering Heights, based on the really dumb proposition that a girl chooses love above everything else, and then pursues it relentlessly for eternal happiness. Wow, what a crazy amateurish idea, it couldn’t sell millions of books now could it? But it turned out to be sheer genius. So, why then the ambivalence in the Illustrated Guide, with SM switching back and forth between whether one choice is good or it’s the other? It seems to be another conflict that arose within SM while writing this story.


It seems to me that NM and EC were Stephenie’s attempt at making the series more Wuthering Heights like. The end of TW had no conflict other than Jacob’s father making the subtle threat of watching and Edward refusing to give in and bite her. BD gave us our HEA. I feel like it was too cut and dried. Yes, these two had to overcome a lot to be together...had to be willing and did (in Bella’s case) give up their lives to be together. But in the end, everyone got what they wanted, except the Volturi but they weren’t supposed to have a HEA anyway. I feel that the only way for some people who were going to hear the story and invest in it, was to have the realistic aspects of it come about. In real life, when you’re boyfriend breaks up with you and moves out of town, you may go at it alone for a while, but eventually you find a suitable replacement. EC just fleshed out the characters more and solidified our feelings for the family Bella was going to join. For me though it gave it the realistic aspect that though is not very fun or romantic, is necessary for a believable story. It’s what takes the story past “that never happens” to “I’ve been there so I can understand”. Had Stephenie not written Jacob’s part to conflict with Edward, or had Edward not pointed out to us time and again of his guilty feelings for hurting Bella, we would not have been able to project ourselves into the story. Edward notes that he is the reason Jacob is so involved with Bella’s life and we all say, “Yes, we can see it’s your fault and we think it’s so sweet that you will put up with us being “human” and overlook our obvious fickle nature. You are so chilvarous to understand that now we have to deal with the consequences of what all happened while you were gone...All is forgiven...carry on”

I think Stephenie did want to make the story more real. The whole concept of a vampire working as an ER doctor threw me for a loop when I first heard this. By watching Interview with a Vampire, I could conceiveably believe that vampires could have feelings beyond being thirsty so the falling in love part wasn’t too far off to me. They could have a conscience so they could legitimately choose not to kill humans.

I guess not reading Forever Dawn left me out of hearing the pregnancy from Bella’s point of view, but I got the distinct impression from Jacob’s PoV that he’s realizing how desperate Edward is to save Bella. I’m not sure about everyone else, but I did see Jacob’s PoV as being the best vantage for viewing the pregnancy and birth. While I don’t think he pulled any punches, I think this was a side that Edward could never have told us and Bella was too involved and “inside her own head” to be aware of everything going on. He gave us the human reaction to Bella being pregnant with an unknown entity, with her drinking the blood, and right up to the birth where he didn’t want to see but couldn’t look away. I never saw this as losing the love and compassion that would have come from Bella’s PoV, but instead gaining a perspective that neither of our favourite couple could have told. He saw Bella’s determination and love. He saw Edward’s absolute devastation which could only result from a man losing his reason to exist and his devotion to Bella.

About Edward not killing the one who wanted to harm Bella in TW, I’m not certain he had the restraint not to do it if Bella had not been there. He had never been this protective over anyone before and he says that he’s trying to make himself into someone that deserves her. I think with the exception of Carlisle, Esme, and possibly Alice have no trouble thinking or taking a human life. Emmett tries to convince Edward that it will be okay if he does kill her and Jasper and Rosalie are prepared to do it, even regretfully, once Edward exposes them to Bella. Now these perceptions are all from MS but I can see more into their personalities than I could with just Bella's PoV.
I don’t think the series says much about Alice or Esmee killing a human...I see why it wouldn’t with Esme because she’s been with Carlisle since she was changed. But does anyone know about Alice? We know Jasper did because he told his story, and it would make sense that she had the same beginnings. But she could see that she would end up with Carlisle...would that enable her to control her thirst?
I think that Emmett and Rosalie believe that taking human life is sometimes a regretable part of their nature. The way Edward tells Bella that carnivors taste better than herbivors. There are some occasions when it just can't be helped and they have to deal with that.

Jazz Girl wrote:Yes, Edward ends up with an amazing love with his soulmate, a beautiful daughter whom he worships and who makes his life more complete than he ever thought it could be, and a neverending future to make every wish he’s ever had come true. But, he’s earned it. He suffered for it, worked for it, been forced to look at everything he thought he was and knows he is and learn some fundamental truths for it, walked through fire for it. But, his future will always be complicated by the presence of the one person who threatened him, threatened that happiness and that love, who literally tortured him with a smile on his face. And there’s not a damn thing he can do about it except accept it with a smile. Because Jacob’s connection isn’t anything he had to work for or earn. His future was handed to him without so much as a finger lifted. In the end, Edward doesn’t lose his love to Jacob. But he has to hand over his daughter.


But for Bella wanting/needing Jacob around during the pregnancy, I think that there was a genetic draw for both of them. They both make reference to it not being there after and Jacob even refers to the after feeling being right...meaning he thought the way they wanted to be near each other before was wrong? I think his aversion to Edward’s part of Nessie’s genetic makeup was strictly his jealousy. His bitterness over not winning the one he thought he should be with. So even he doesn’t understand why he continues to hang around even after knowing she chose Edward. He doesn’t know why he seems to be a glutton for punishment. This would explain his actions more soundly than he’s a teenage werewolf. After all, as soon as he imprints the dynamic between Edward and Jacob changes and his hostility disappears. All of a sudden, he is concerned with what Edward thinks...whether or not he’ll be allowed to stay around Nessie. I don't think Jacob, Bella or Edward were uncomfortable around each other with the outcome. I think when the dynamic changed, it would seem Bella and Edward became the adults and Jacob...still 16...maybe 17 by now, acts the same. The only difference is that now his devotion is to Nessie. Though they may not have worked out the details, it would seem that Jacob is prepared to accept the role of protector, but will defer to Nessie's parents for the ultimate decision. Bella knowing how strong that pull was for her during the pregnancy may have something to do with why she is so lenient with the imprint.

newborntwifan wrote:As for Stephenie's ambivalence, I didn't mind Jacob as a character throughout the first three books. I don't think Stephenie "allowed" him to get away with certain dialogue or behavior because she favors him. I think his dialogue and behavior reflect the fact that he is an impulsive, somewhat immature teenage boy who sees the love of his life slipping away, and he's desperate to do anything to keep it from happening. He lacks the refinement Edward gained growing up in a different era and the wisdom that 100+ years on earth brings.


Agree with this. I think of him as impulsive and impatient. I think of the wolves as having too much testosterone (maybe because they are driven to the change by their emotions at least at first). And yes, even Leah...let's face it she is impulsive, quick to anger, bitter...
When Edward finally decides to trust him and allow Bella to spend time with him, he calms down some but I think that's because he's stopped fighting Edward for Bella's attention and began fighting Bella for it. He got his foot in the door, so to speak and thinks with enough time, declarations and guilt trips he can get her to admit something that she tells him time and again is not a viable choice for her. Admittedly, she has feelings for him, but she's not trying to deny them, she's trying to make him understand that she will not be with him. She probably would have been more likely to admit that she loved Jacob quicker and easier if he hadn't been so insistent. Bella was stubborn so Jacob should have known that if he's trying to force her, she's more likely to fight even something that she thinks too.

My thinking that Edward has his ultimate HEA because first, he has Bella. He has what he coveted from day one in Biology. He also has this beautiful daughter and even though her future is still somewhat unsure, it's not a complete unknown quantity since he now knows others like her exist. For BD, he is content to let Bella take the lead. He realizes that though he will not leave her side, he no longer has to be as protective because she is after all stronger than him for the time being.

I also don't think that Bella necessarily had a drop in IQ during her pregnancy but I'm sure she's got a LOT of changes happeneing with her emotions and they are coming quick. She hasn't had 9-10 months to get used to this and there are too many factors about the pregnancy for her to be rational about anything. She knows her mind was made up to have the baby and her mind was set on going through with the change. On first figuring out she's pregnant, I think she says something like, she didn't know she wanted to be a mother until it happened. Then she couldn't accept any other alternative.

I see I'm going to have to go back and read the guide and some of Stephenie's interviews again. But for now, this will have to be enough. I'm getting sleepy and soon I won't be making sense even to myself.
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Re: Ambivalences

Postby Tornado » Thu May 03, 2012 2:24 am

While we do have a HEA at the end of BD, as with most HEAs, we only assume that things are going to be okay because that's how it ends. Let's face it, the Volturi are still out there, and it's pretty clear they will try again at some time, maybe by trying to pick people off one by one (as is the comment at the end of BD), so there is still the possibility of a lot of other difficult situations happening after BD. And Jacob versus Nahuel? There's a battle that would be interesting to watch!

The only other comment I'll make is about Alice and Esme killing people. While certainly Alice knew she was always going to be with Carlisle, that doesn't mean resisting human blood was easy to do, especially as a newborn. The guide says she tried the vegetarian lifestyle with sporadic success. I think this is another indication of just how tricky that lifestyle can be, and how much a supportive family can help, rather than one vampire on their own. Even in Esme's case, in spite of her caring nature and the presence of her family, there were obviously one or two times when she gave in to the call of human blood. It must be something that is very difficult for her to live with.
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