Explorations (**BD2 Movie Spoilers!**)

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Re: Explorations

Postby Violet Sunlight » Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:30 pm

Hello everyone :wave: ~ I love the discussion we are having. As always, please feel free to respond to anything I post in this VERY LONG post even if it is not addressed to you. Also, :idea: I thought it would be fun to use a little bit of color font. Yay. :D

Jazz Girl, corona & Tornado ~ I totally agree with your views on the dynamic of Emmett & Rosalie’s relationship.

corona ~ Regarding your comment on SM’s “Miscalculations”, Yes Rosalie is self-satisfied and IMO distracted by her own beauty, but it wouldn’t be an acceptable reason to become a vampire in her mind. The grave still seems better than enhanced beauty combined with the ever painful vampire thirst that will never be satiated as a yellow-eyed vampire.

corona wrote: I may have made a miscalculation myself. Sometimes I don't see what is staring me in the face. I had assumed that Rosalie saw children as being her redemption.

I too have difficulty seeing the obvious, when it not only stares me in the face, but hits me in the face too. :blackeye: It’s the story of my life. That’s why I often request details, details and more details to everything.
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Tornado ~
Tornado wrote: Just because Edward and Rosalie show some discontent in their lives (and I'd point out here that Rosalie shows discontent even while she has the love of Emmett) doesn't mean it is representative of everyone in the vampire state. It depends on personality, not just that they are vampires. Emmett is a classic example. I believe that, had he been turned by someone else, and had never met Rosalie or fallen in love, he would have probably learned to be content with what he was because that's in his nature. Everyone reacts differently. You can't say that every vampire in existence would not find contentment with a parent-type role model simply because two of the vampires we are acquainted with are discontented with their lives. In fact, there's only one that could conform to your standard, and that's Edward, because, as I said before, Rosalie is not content even with Emmett. And even with Edward, your argument might hold water if he was clearly not happy with Carlisle and Esme as parents, but he is. He just craves a purpose and direction in his life.


I’m afraid you have misunderstood me, I never said EVERY vampire in existence would not find contentment with a parent-type role model. I said the YELLOW-EYED vampires would NOT find SOLE contentment WITH or due to a parent-type role model WHILE being single/and to further clarify celibate. Yes, the yellow-eyed vampires love their parents or parent-type role models, but that is NOT enough to make them fully content and painfully abstain from human blood. The content yellow-eyed vampires have mates or are involved intimately with others (human and vampires) as the Denali Sisters are. Also, since I am on the subject of the Denali’s, I would like to point out the Denali’ s were content, while being single with their mother/creator and while being red-eyed NOT yellow-eyed.

The reason I brought up yellow-eyed vampire adult children not being solely content with their vampire life style, though they had wonderful yellow-eyed vampire parents who I believe they loved or felt some sort of affections for, in the first place, was because of my hypothetical self-defeating scenario where Carlisle changes another un-consenting dying individual, for the SOLE PURPOSE of giving Rosalie motherhood. In any event, mercifully for Rosalie, the gamble she took on Emmett paid off generously. I just don’t see it making sense to take that kind of gamble on motherhood, when she already knows it would have been a dead end. Literally and metaphorically.

Furthermore and lastly, ironically to our discussion, Rosalie discontentment as a yellow-eyed vampire was because she had a strong desire to be a mother and shortly, if not immediately, before being changed into a vampire. Subsequently, freezing and intensifying her craving for motherhood. Almost like human-Esme, who ACTUALLY WAS a mother who intensely craved to hold her child though she knew she never would, then was very shortly after changed into a vampire subsequently freezing and intensifying her nurturing motherly nature. Which makes me incline to believe extremely-nurturing-Esme would NOT have been FULLY content as a motherless yellow-eyed vampire. She would have been possibly half-content and half-gloomy. I am NOT saying she would have been rude like Rosalie, but she would not be as fulfilled as she is now. In any event, the needle on Aunt Rosalie’s contentment meter went up with Nessie’s presence in her life. I am NOT saying it went up all the way, but it did go up significantly.
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Jazz Girl ~ Regarding your comments on the possibility of Rosalie being a good or fit mother, I kindly disagree. Just because human-mothers get exhausted and cranky doesn’t mean they would be bad or neglectful mothers. Before Nessie was born, Rosalie was already caring for the child and even before she knew the child would be gifted. She had no problems tending to Bella’s needs and arguing with Edward, possibly Carlisle and of course Jacob, simultaneously. Furthermore, I would like to respond to your statement when you say, “Being a mother requires sacrifice, compromise, patience and above all else, putting yourself absolutely last on your list of priorities”. Rosalie had already demonstrated these qualities ALL THE WHILE in her emotionally (self-absorbed, vain, rude, etc., etc.) intensified vampire state. I would like to illustrate how Rosalie would absolutely qualify to be a good human-mother in the following 4 ways you mentioned she wouldn’t:

Sacrifice – Edward wanted to disassemble Rosalie to get to Nessie. Edward really could have made a mess of her and her prized beauty. More importantly, on a greater sacrificial degree, Rosalie was willing to fight her BROTHER and the child’s FATHER, not to mention all the rest of her opposing beloved family, for Nessie’s life. Also, Rosalie did after all, put her life and Emmett’s on the line for Nessie when the Volturi came, and all without hesitation, I might add.

Compromise – If you mean one has to compromise one’s self-centered life style to fit the needs of their child, then Rosalie nailed this one too when she submits to Edward’s and Bella’s parental authority. However, if you mean the parent needs to compromise with the child’s desires, then IMO, that is wrong. One of the many goals of a parent is to never compromise and always be consistent with the rules to avoid confusing the child. A fickled parent is stressful for a child. Believe it or not, rules make children feel safe and allows them to be productive. Children thrive in stability. But, I’ll be the first to admit, I myself struggle a lot in this area of parenting, not on major issues but on minor ones.

Patience – Rosalie had no problems tending to Bella’s delicate pregnant needs. Also, she was understanding and forbearing when Emmett killed as many people as he did over and over again. If she can be forbearing and tolerant of ALL of that, I’m sure she could and would be more so with her OWN child’s inconveniences and mishaps regardless of the degree or nature of the circumstance.

Putting yourself absolutely last on your list of priorites – When Rosalie lost control and Jacob kicked her in her abdomen, she could have fought back in her wild frame of mind but she didn’t. She wanted to be stopped even though her stronger baser instinct did not want her to. Also, she was starving, to say the very least, when Carlisle recommended she hunt, but she would not go, knowing that Edward might possibly act. Nothing was more important than the welfare of that child. Not even her excruciatingly painful vampire thirst.

Also, though Rosalie could not be Nessie’s mother, she is willing to care for Nessie as though she was, not only before she is born, but after as well. Even after the fact of knowing she will never be called momma by this child. Further, contrary to your belief, Rosalie does have a choice. She does not have to be sooo mothering to Nessie. She could have been like Aunt Alice or any of the other loving Cullens, but she is NOT. She argues with Jacob and submits to Edward and Bella’s parental authority not because she has to be in Nessie’s life to that degree, but because she wants to be. She is as nurturing and close to Nessie as any mother would be, and without getting in Bella’s way, I might add. Further, on a lighter note, she has been gifted an added little bonus, she was able to feed Nessie in a bottle while newborn momma-Bella couldn’t. I am not saying no one else fed Nessie, I’m just saying for a short while Rosalie was given a treat of sorts.

Regarding human-Rosalie’s financial status:
I just brought that up to illustrate how self-centered and self-absorbed women sometimes make good mothers. Not necessarily saying rich self-absorbed women make better mothers than poor self-absorbed women. I am just saying it is possible.

Regarding Esme’s motivation for her stand:
I don’t doubt Esme’s love for Bella at all or that it is indeed greater than Rosalie’s. Further, IF Bella would have wanted to STAY HUMAN and would have decided to abort the child that was killing her and would have, without a doubt, ENDED her human-life, I like Esme too, would have been supportive of Bella’s choice. The point I want to make again is that Bella, Rosalie and Esme are fighting for the life of the unborn child in their own respective ways and because of their own respective reasons. Though, I do understand how and why Rosalie’s reasons really bug you, the main point I want to make regarding this subject is that, at the end of the day, ALL of them were fighting for the same cause, though for different reasons.

Jazz Girl wrote: She did neither of those things. She called Rosalie because she knew exactly the position Rosalie would take. She needed someone who didn’t give a damn if she lived or died, but who would protect the fetus to the death. She counted on Rosalie not only siding with her, but truly wanting the baby for her own.

Momma-Bella was smart in her stressful situation. By calling Rosalie, she made short term and long term arrangements for her child’s well being. Edward is the apple of Carlisle’s and Esme’s eyes she could not chance that Carlisle would side with her or that Esme’s words would be sufficient to change Edward’s mind. She was right. When Jacob asked Edward something like, “why hasn’t Carlisle taken it out of her?” Edward says something like, “Carlisle would have, but her bodyguard complicated things and Carlisle would not act while Esme was against it”.
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Re: Explorations

Postby Tornado » Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:59 pm

VS, my point still stands. It doesn't matter if they're golden eyed or red eyed: we can't judge all the behaviour of golden eyed vampires on the behaviour of two (or one, really).

I notice you've brought in the 'celibate' condition to rule out the Denali sisters. I don't think that condition can be applied, unless you're going to try and convince me that the Denali sisters' promiscuous lifestyles are just as fullfilling as a monogamous relationship. I don't think you believe that, and I certainly don't. So they should be discontented, if your theory is correct.

Moreover, regarding this theory, there is only ONE celibate golden-eyed vampire we know: Edward, and you cannot base this assumption on the evidence of one person only. We'd need to know at least a few others to see if there was a pattern that demonstrated this tendency in order to prove that it was so. You can't prove a theory with only one test subject and apply the result to an entire race of beings, especially if the theory is related to behaviour.

Violet Sunlight wrote:Rosalie discontentment as a yellow-eyed vampire was because she had a strong desire to be a mother and shortly,


I disagree. I think Rosalie's discontentment is based on her desire to have an ideal fulfilled, and it just happened to be the desire to be a mother owing to the times in which she was raised. If someone has a real desire to be a mother they will find some way to fulfil it. Even women who can't have children usually adopt or become foster parents, or mother everyone else's children. Rosalie shows no inclination to mother anyone at all, unlike Esme, so I don't think her desire is for motherhood. She just had an ideal - an ideal that was fed to her by the world in which she grew up. I believe that if Rosalie had grown up as a human in Bella's time she wouldn't have thought about children at all until at least much later in life, if ever, and would have, instead, tried to have a successful career. If she was naturally wanting to be a mother, she would do as Esme has done: find a way to mother regardless of circumstances. She does not ever even attempt to do this to anyone. She just glories in the sight of her own reflection and moans about what she didn't get.
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Re: Explorations

Postby corona » Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:28 am

Tornado wrote:corona, with the imprinting reveal scene, I got the impression that Rosalie was just happy to take any opportunity to get angry with Jacob, because, as she put it so succinctly, she owed him, "a good kick in the gut". It was opportunity knocks, in my opinion, rather than a sign she was favouring mother and father over imprintee.


Tornado, since you know how I feel about that scene, you can understand why I've never brought that up before. The "good kick in the gut" was entirely inappropriate, though. Consider the context of why that happened in the first place. Yes, I agree that Rose is looking for the nearest weapon at hand, but I still like to think she there was actually a moment of empathy for Bella when Jacob refuses to unhand Nessie.

I see that as another piece of evidence that Rose simply doesn't think. She reacts to the moment.

And with that, I think I'm tapped out on Rosalie, who I've never been able reconcile with the story. Have you seen the movie "Memento", where the guy loses his short-term memory? That's sort of what I think about Rosalie, responding to the moment without a thought about the implications. She doesn't make sense to me in any other way.

I think that may have cropped up when SM expanded her story.

There are only a few lines in MS that suggest Rosalie had an issue being changed. We know there is a problem there, but the ones that overwhelms the first two stories is a) Rosalie is vain and despised Edward for finding Bella more attractive than her, and b) Rosalie jumps the gun on calling Edward because she is jealous that Alice cares so much for Bella. To a lesser extent, there is also c) an indifference to whether Bella lives or dies. In fact, on point "c", I'm being extremely generous since Rosalie didn't push a certain issue. This, despite the fact that Edward tells us that Rosalie didn't like Bella because she instinctually knew from the very beginning that Edward was attracted to Bella in a way that he never was with her. From the very beginning. Keep that in context for their family discussion following the van incident. Alice's vision only confirms what Rosalie already suspects, explaining why she is the very first to openly confirm what the vision meant.

Then there is her apology with false notes when Bella first returns, then she explains her NO vote by beginning with a lie, that she would have no aversion to Bella as a sister.

And suddenly out pops Rosalie, the defender of humanity. The one who so loves humanity that even though she has no respect for Bella, treasures her humanness SO MUCH that she advises her to turn her back on Edward, knowing that results in Edward's eventual death by suicide and the destruction of happiness for her entire family. Isn't this just a repeat of "Edward has to know" in NM, followed now by "Bella has to know" in EC? And would Rosalie feel "wretched" again if Bella had actually left Edward as she advised her to do?

I don't have a problem with Rosalie talking to Bella, explaining why she voted NO. I do have a problem with her going way beyond that, telling her there is only path to take, that she is choosing wrong.

I take SM's statement that Rosalie loves her family as absolute, and I don't question that. I can't come to any other conclusion than something is seriously wrong with her. She is mental. Something is broken.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Explorations

Postby Tornado » Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:01 pm

I think the Eclipse Rosalie is the closest we get to a Rosalie that's trying to behave like a member of the family, rather than an outsider. Certainly the line "you're choosing wrong!" suggests she's still being as narrow minded as always, but, as she points out, it's not just about her vanity anymore. I think at this point, and also at the end of New Moon, she's genuinely trying to help Bella make what she thinks is the "right" decision. Perhaps she, like Alice, is trying to live vicariously through Bella at this point, by trying to give Bella the opportunity she never had. As you pointed out, I don't think she's thinks too far ahead, so she may be refusing to think about Edward's eventual death when Bella dies, or maybe she thinks they'll be able to stop it, just as they did at the end of New Moon.

Then, of course, Bella turns around and doesn't do as she's suggesting, so, in BD, we get the old Rosalie back. She's a little nicer (doing Bella's hair for the wedding), so it seems she's trying, but once Bella offers her something that she never got, she seizes it with both hands, not worrying at all that it could well cost Bella her life.
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Re: Explorations

Postby corona » Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:34 pm

Tornado wrote:Then, of course, Bella turns around and doesn't do as she's suggesting, so, in BD, we get the old Rosalie back. She's a little nicer (doing Bella's hair for the wedding), so it seems she's trying, but once Bella offers her something that she never got, she seizes it with both hands, not worrying at all that it could well cost Bella her life.


Nor what it would cost Edward. Throughout the entire series I couldn't see any solid example of this supposed love for her brother. Actually...I couldn't really see it with anyone in the family except for Emmett. Edward just gets the worst of it. I'd hate to see what her bad side was like.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Explorations

Postby Tornado » Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:45 pm

Well, she murdered seven humans, five of them slowly and torturously, so I'm guessing she's not someone you'd want to cross!
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Re: Explorations

Postby Jazz Girl » Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:30 pm

Violet Sunlight~ We will just have to agree to disagree. I think Rosalie’s nature and personality as a human would have made her a disinterested mother at best. As Tornado so astutely phrased it, she was looking for the picture-perfect ideal, not the reality of being a wife and mother. She had the desire, but did not yet have the experience to understand the realities of it, which I think she would have reacted to quite badly. The irony is that, as you so keenly observed, Rosalie’s transformation when she was so emotionally desiring a child made her more ready for a child. It did enhance those qualities that allowed her to overcome her own nature. But, those were not characteristics or abilities she had as a human. Thus, where she had a better chance of being a good mother as a vampire, she was denied the possibility.

But, I think you are overlooking one crucial dynamic in using Rosalie’s behavior during Bella’s pregnancy as an argument for what would have possibly made her a good mother. Not only was she more than willing to watch Bella die in order to get what SHE wanted, she was pretty much banking on it. Again, this isn’t assumption or supposition or interpretation. This is confirmed fact. She believed Ness would be her baby because she believed Bella was going to die. All of her catering to Bella was a means to an end. She could put her own irritation with the weak stupid human aside for a few weeks to get what she wanted in the end.

When looking at her sacrifices, I honestly don’t think you can say she was willing to sacrifice her beauty. We know that vampires, unless burned, can pretty much rebuild themselves with no lasting damage. And, she also knew Emmett would never let Edward near her either way. And, I don’t see Rosalie willing to interfere in Edward and Bella’s relationship as a sacrifice for her. She’d been doing that all along. She kind of delighted in it, to be honest. That she saw it at all appropriate to involve herself in their relationship is, in my opinion, one more mark in the 'Negatives' column as far as I'm concerned. Rosalie could have very easily functioned as Bella's bodyguard without literally putting herself between them. There are times I think she delighted just a little too much in the way it hurt Edward.

Regarding Rosalie’s supposed compromises, yes, I am speaking specifically about sacrificing one’s own wants and desires to provide for their children. Here again, I disagree. First and foremost, once Ness is born, Rosalie understands that her presence in Ness’ life is subject to Bella and Edward’s approval. I’m not saying that they would purposely cut her out of their lives. Family is of utmost importance to all of the Cullens. But, I also see Rosalie as being smart enough to know inherently that Edward and Bella call the shots and arguing with them where their daughter is concerned is likely to get her head bitten off, possibly literally. And, truthfully, we don’t ever see a situation where that is challenged. There is never a situation where Rosalie feels differently from Bella and Edward on something to do with Ness. So, we never see her submit to their authority. But, also, it is, again, the best of both worlds for Rosalie. She gets all of the joy of being a part of Ness’ life with none of the responsibility. She gets to be the cool aunt and never has to play the heavy.

Where Rosalie’s patience is concerned, here again, a means to an end. A temporary irritation where she plays the doting and attentive sister who, when the tragic end she is counting on happens, naturally transfers her caretaking from the tragically lost Bella to her child. Yes, I’m pretty sure she’s not only aware of what will happen to Edward, she’s counting on that, as well. But, she knows that, at the very least, Edward will never be able to care for anything that he sees as responsible for taking Bella away from him, no matter how gifted and special his child turns out to be. As for her attitude towards Emmett, we can't say one way or the other how she reacted. But, something tells me that Rosalie was not the picture of patient acceptance and that there might have been some harsh words spoken, possibly about having to relocate before she was ready, or her having to stare at his red eyes for several more months.

I completely agree with your points about Rosalie’s behavior during the birth. She let herself be bested and was able to stay in control more so than if she wasn't so devoted to Ness. She was desperate for that baby to be born, to survive the process. I’m not saying she’s not devoted to Ness or willing to do what is necessary to protect her. But, generalizing that deadly desire to her being a good mother, especially as a human, is a huge stretch. And, again, at that point, Ness is still an unknown that can be seen as the picture-perfect ideal. She is the possibility of everything Rosalie wants with nothing to temper her ferocious desire to get what she wants. But, consider the possibility of Ness as more human than vampire, a race that Rosalie has openly scorned as useless, helpless and a waste. Would she have continued to dote so if her niece wasn’t so amazingly gifted, was more like a normal human newborn, with all of the weaknesses and driving and constant needs? I think the answer is no.

Yes, they all had their own reasons for protecting Ness before she was born. But, you hit the nail on the head. I detest Rosalie’s behavior even more because of why she was behaving that way. Rosalie’s reasons were selfish and meant only to benefit her in the end. And, what’s more, she essentially lied about her reasons, pretending to be on Bella’s side when she was really only ever on her own side. The ultimate betrayal is that she is perfectly willing to watch Bella die, actually plans on it, in order to get what she thinks she was denied in her own life. To me, what she was accomplishing doesn’t excuse how she was accomplishing it. And, further, acting in such a manner would make her, by definition, a less-than-stellar mother. To say otherwise would be the same as saying that someone who kidnapped a child because they couldn’t have a child of their own could still be a good parent.



corona wrote:
Tornado wrote:Then, of course, Bella turns around and doesn't do as she's suggesting, so, in BD, we get the old Rosalie back. She's a little nicer (doing Bella's hair for the wedding), so it seems she's trying, but once Bella offers her something that she never got, she seizes it with both hands, not worrying at all that it could well cost Bella her life.


Nor what it would cost Edward. Throughout the entire series I couldn't see any solid example of this supposed love for her brother. Actually...I couldn't really see it with anyone in the family except for Emmett. Edward just gets the worst of it. I'd hate to see what her bad side was like.


I absolutely agree, Corona. As I said to VS, I personally believe Rosalie not only knew that Edward would likely kill himself when Bella died, but that she was counting on it quite as much as she was counting on Bella dying. Rosalie wanted the baby for her own, plain and simple. And her was the most perfect possible opportunity. A human stubbornly insisting that she can carry and deliver a hybrid baby who happens to be married to a vampire who is so desperately in love with her that her death assures his, leaving the baby an orphan.
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Re: Explorations

Postby Tornado » Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:37 am

Jazz Girl wrote:As I said to VS, I personally believe Rosalie not only knew that Edward would likely kill himself when Bella died, but that she was counting on it quite as much as she was counting on Bella dying. Rosalie wanted the baby for her own, plain and simple. And her was the most perfect possible opportunity. A human stubbornly insisting that she can carry and deliver a hybrid baby who happens to be married to a vampire who is so desperately in love with her that her death assures his, leaving the baby an orphan.


That's a very interesting point, Jazz Girl. I hadn't thought of it that way, but you're right. Judging by Rosalie's personality, this is logical.

However, I think there are a couple of points against it. For example, Rosalie explains to Jacob the steps they are planning to take in delivering the baby, which suggests a possible safe delivery for Bella. While she could have still been hoping in the back of her mind that Bella wouldn't make it, I honestly think even Emmett wouldn't have had a hope of holding Edward off if Rosalie was actively thinking at this point of the benefits to her if both Bella and Edward died. Now, I guess she could have worked these things through before Edward and Bella returned from their honeymoon, burying this attitude deep within her, hoping that Edward wouldn't see, but in the scene where Edward hears the baby for the first time, and his attitude towards it changes, she then goes on to happily discuss baby names with them. If your theory is correct, I would have expected her to be upset at the change in Edward's feelings towards the baby. It is at least possible that, realising the love the baby had for Bella, that Edward would have been willing to live on for her sake even if Bella had died. I think it's likely that Rosalie would at least be worried about the possibility that his change in attitude might result in him sticking around and getting in the way if she was thinking along these lines all along.

So perhaps it's more accurate to say that she wouldn't be upset if Edward and Bella both left this mortal coil, but she doesn't mind if they stick around. After all, if her attitude is still along the lines of the type of mother she was planning to be to Royce's kids, she'd probably be glad that Bella and Edward will be there to lay down the law and do all the dirty work. There's no doubt in my mind that, had Rosalie lived on as a human, she would have had a nurse and a governess, etc, for her children, and she would have been the type of mother who only saw them at certain times of the day when they were clean and neatly dressed and playing nicely with each other, and when she kissed them goodnight at bedtime. With this in mind, her role as doting aunt would probably suit her down to the ground.

Now, Edward does confirm to Jacob that Rosalie is "after the kid", but what does that mean? Does it mean she's after exclusive access? Even if Bella and Edward both die, she would be aware that there's no way she'd be the immediate choice of parent to care for it, nor would she be the only carer. The rest of the family are still there, and I think primary responsibility would likely be given to Carlisle and Esme. So I think it's more likely the case, as corona pointed out, that she just hasn't thought it through properly. She has her eyes on the prize: the baby, and will do anything necessary to ensure she has access to it. Whoever dies or lives in the process is not truly her concern. She just wants a baby in her life at the end of it.
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Re: Explorations

Postby corona » Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:30 am

Tornado, I took the "after the kid" comment as Rosalie being totally focused on the child. Not Bella. And when things took a turn for the worse I can see her contemplating Bella's death and what she would have to immediately do. That incision she makes is something she likely has been running through over and over again in her mind. And if she is that focused on delivering this child, then she would have to think about about the results. If Bella dies, what happens to Edward? More specifically, what happens with the child?

Yeah, I saw Rosalie mulling that in her head and not flinching away from the implications. I can see her understanding the tragedy, but also seeing the benefits. Bella is a priority up to the point of delivery, and after that her life is up to Edward and Carlisle.

Rosalie knows from the very beginning that whatever myths exist, they all point to the mother's death. She can see the child consuming Bella's life right before her eyes. Knowing how obsessive Rosalie is about children, it would be impossible for her not to think about the implications of Bella actually dying. And if she is able to push Edward away from Bella without a drop of guilt or compassion for the "burning man", then I could see her coldly contemplating Edward's exit as maybe being for the best. What happens to Bella or what happens to Edward isn't her problem or her responsibility as she sees it.

All of that may conflict with some of SM's statements concerning vampire bonds. Rosalie should experience an almost physical pain contemplating the grief that Edward would go through. But, SM needed an obsessive ally for Bella to ensure that come hell or high water that child would get delivered.

I would note that SM specifically designs Rosalie this way. Rosalie is meant to do this, this is her purpose, a shallow, vain human that is transformed into a vampire at the moment when she discovers her greatest desire is to have children. SM even lets her off the hook a bit by instilling that desire so strongly that it overshadows all other considerations, including the bonds she has with her family, allowing her to fulfill that purpose.

You know what I mean? An ugly tool designed for a specific purpose can't really be blamed for being ugly. But, it can't be denied that it IS ugly. I can't say that Rose is actively cheering and plotting Bella's death, but I can't say she isn't either or doesn't at least fantasize what life might be like...if. This is her very particular vampiric all-consuming 24/7 "willing to leave Emmett for" obsession. Obsessions tend to have disturbing aspects.

In that way, I also see Rosalie's desire for children as a red herring. I think children were very important to SM, but that message was delivered in other ways too. The fact that Rosalie was obsessed with having children conveniently allows that message to be given, but I always saw that as building towards BD. What Rosalie is really about is a warning that being changed isn't for everyone, and you absolutely don't want to go through it with regrets. And, Rosalie is the tool that Bella reaches out to.

Jazz Girl wrote:And, further, acting in such a manner would make her, by definition, a less-than-stellar mother. To say otherwise would be the same as saying that someone who kidnapped a child because they couldn’t have a child of their own could still be a good parent.


Well put, and directly to the point, better than I could have said. I'm going to steal that thought and pretend it is my own, if you don't mind. [Well spoken, corona! Thank you, thank you.]

Rosalie's obsession was more about Rosalie's obsession, not children. The target of her obsession, children, just happened to work well for Bella later. Rose is the broken clock that manages to give the correct time twice a day, if that makes sense. My opinion only, I know that is harsh, but I can't find this desire of hers redeeming or even a positive aspect of her character when she is willing to sacrifice almost anything to get it regardless of the cost or who has to pay it.

Tornado wrote:The rest of the family are still there, and I think primary responsibility would likely be given to Carlisle and Esme.


Yep, I think so too if things had gone badly. Rosalie ends up being much better off the way things stand.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Explorations

Postby Jazz Girl » Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:12 pm

Tornado wrote: Now, I guess she could have worked these things through before Edward and Bella returned from their honeymoon, burying this attitude deep within her, hoping that Edward wouldn't see...


That's pretty much my theory. Although, I think Rosalie was also counting on a few factors coming together to help keep Edward out of her head. We know that the family had all become pretty adept at blocking Edward when they wanted to. I think Rosalie definitely has some motivation to keep Edward out of her head at this point. Also, I think she knew that Edward would be completely focused on Bella and completely lost in his own head, which would help mask her thoughts. And, I also think she took the time to work through all of the possibilities so that she didn't slip in her reaction and do something that earned more attention from Edward.

Tornado wrote:So perhaps it's more accurate to say that she wouldn't be upset if Edward and Bella both left this mortal coil, but she doesn't mind if they stick around.


Yes, that's pretty much my thinking. Her ultimate goal is to get the baby born, consequences be damned. Secondary to that is to mother the poor orphaned little hybrid. And, worst case scenario, she plays the doting aunt, allowing Bella and/or Edward and/or Esme to play primary parent.

Tornado wrote:Now, Edward does confirm to Jacob that Rosalie is "after the kid", but what does that mean? Does it mean she's after exclusive access? Even if Bella and Edward both die, she would be aware that there's no way she'd be the immediate choice of parent to care for it, nor would she be the only carer. The rest of the family are still there, and I think primary responsibility would likely be given to Carlisle and Esme. So I think it's more likely the case, as corona pointed out, that she just hasn't thought it through properly. She has her eyes on the prize: the baby, and will do anything necessary to ensure she has access to it. Whoever dies or lives in the process is not truly her concern. She just wants a baby in her life at the end of it.


I've always interpreted his comment to mean she wants the child as her own, that that's her primary goal, regardless of consequences. As I said, I think she's been able to shield just how deeply and far down the list of possibilities she's thought. I can say, in the case of Esme and/or Carlisle claiming the right to parent in Bella and Edward's absence, I can see Rosalie staking a pretty vehement claim. Her first argument would be that it was her and her alone who so fiercely protected the baby and Bella, that she was the only one who respected Bella's wishes completely. She would, of course, base this argument on the fact that Carlisle was at least willing to consider performing an abortion and Esme's protection wasn't as present or dedicated as hers. Secondary to that would be her supposition that Carlisle and Esme should be satisfied with parenting the children they already have and allow her to fulfill her most desperate wish. That she would see herself as the appropriate caregiver over Carlisle and Esme only demonstrates the how deep her obsession (delusion?) lies. But, in the end, she's able to make herself perfectly happy with whatever role she's allowed to play. As we've both said, what she ends up with is probably the perfectly ideal situation for her.

corona wrote:
Jazz Girl wrote:And, further, acting in such a manner would make her, by definition, a less-than-stellar mother. To say otherwise would be the same as saying that someone who kidnapped a child because they couldn’t have a child of their own could still be a good parent.


Well put, and directly to the point, better than I could have said. I'm going to steal that thought and pretend it is my own, if you don't mind. [Well spoken, corona! Thank you, thank you.


Feel free to steal it, corona. Though the occasional, "I think I might have heard it somewhere," might be appreciated. :lol:

corona wrote:Rose is the broken clock that manages to give the correct time twice a day, if that makes sense. My opinion only, I know that is harsh, but I can't find this desire of hers redeeming or even a positive aspect of her character when she is willing to sacrifice almost anything to get it regardless of the cost or who has to pay it.


Exactly! I have had many a discussion with people who declare absolute adoration for Rosalie based upon, as they see it, how fiercely she protects Bella and the baby and how dedicated she is to the family. I'm always completely shocked when they say that. She wasn't protecting Bella at all. She was completely willing to watch Bella die a slow and horrible death if it meant she got what she wanted. And, even after the trauma she claimed to suffer when they thought they were going to lose Edward, she was more than willing to watch him die as well if it meant she got what she wanted. Honestly, I think the most telling thing is, in fact, her willingness to sacrifice Emmett if it meant she could have a child. We know from multiple sources that the mate bond between vampires is absolute and the trauma if it is severed is irreparable. It leads to to-the-death vengence quests and/or complete withdrawl and likely suicide. So, for Rosalie to so blithely say that she would give up Emmett.. the level of selfishness that indicates is staggering. She is essentially saying that, under the right circumstances, she doesn't care if Emmett dies.
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