Explorations (**BD2 Movie Spoilers!**)

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Re: Explorations

Postby Violet Sunlight » Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:23 pm

Hello everyone, :wave:

Side note: I noticed I was saying yellow-eyed when I should have been saying golden eyed. Whoops on me. But now I get to try a new color font. :D Yay. Also, I am responding to everyone's post. ;)

Okay here we go.

corona ~

corona wrote: Then there is her apology with false notes when Bella first returns, then she explains her NO vote by beginning with a lie, that she would have no aversion to Bella as a sister.

I don’t know about that, Bella just saved Edward from a predicament Rosalie helped cause. I thought Rosalie meant it, at least, out of gratitude and respect for Bella’s brave actions if not sisterly affections.

corona wrote: And would Rosalie feel "wretched" again if Bella had actually left Edward as she advised her to do?

Wasn’t Edward giving Bella the same advice?

corona wrote: I take SM's statement that Rosalie loves her family as absolute, and I don't question that. I can't come to any other conclusion than something is seriously wrong with her. She is mental. Something is broken.

Yes, Roslie is frozen with anger because of being violated. Although, being a vampire has its' benefits, at the end of the day, she just can’t shake off the anger. Though, I think she is doing much better due to Nessie in her life.

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Tornado ~

Tornado wrote: You can't prove a theory with only one test subject and apply the result to an entire race of beings, especially if the theory is related to behaviour.

That’s correct. Although, I did not just base my theory on 2 subjects only. I have based it on the following:

Edward – 87yrs being single and discontent with the golden eyed lifestyle until vampire-Bella and Nessie come into the picture.

Bella – Not wanting to be a golden eyed vampire without Edward.

Rosalie – About 2 yrs being single and discontent with the golden eyed lifestyle until vampire-Emmett comes into the picture and then she is half-content. Then more than half, but not fully, when Nessie comes into the picture.

Esme – Accepting the golden eyed lifestyle happily because of her romantic affections for Carlisle, who she’d always idolized.

Emmett – Waking up as a vampire and accepting the change and already being in love with his “Angel” Rosalie.

Alice – 1st vision is of Jasper and then sometime after comes the vision of her golden eyed lifestyle.

Jasper – Changes from red eyed lifestyle to golden eyed lifestyle because of Alice, his mate.

Garrett – Changing from red eyed lifestyle to the golden eyed lifestyle for Kate and not changing way back when, when he first met Carlisle.

Denali Sisters – Changing from red eyed to golden eyed lifestyle because of the remorse they felt for killing their intimate human male friends, who they felt strong romantic affections for. Their change was not because they value humanity as a whole like Carlisle. However, at least their golden eyed lifestyle benefits humanity as a whole even if it just winded up being a positive side effect and not the main reason why they chose it. By the way, I don’t believe their promiscuous lifestyle is as fulfilling as a monogamous one. I think the Denali Sisters believe a monogamous relationship is more fulfilling than a promiscuous one, hence Irina falling for Laurent and Kate giving Garrett a try is proof of that for me. However, their long term promiscuity leads me to believe they believe sometimes a counterfeit gets you by until the ideal comes around.

Carmen & Eleazar – Changing from red eyed lifestyle to golden eyed lifestyle as a mated couple, not before when they were single.

Laurent – Changing from the red eyed lifestyle and somewhat giving the golden eyed lifestyle a try because of curiosity and then being somewhat involved, but not really, with Irina too, but then he gives up the golden eyed lifestyle and Irina at the same time.

Carlisle – The only golden eyed vampire in the Twi-Universe who was single for 250+ yrs and was satisfied, (though he was lonely), with the golden eyed lifestyle, regardless of having a mate or not, or having promiscuous endeavors or not, was Carlisle, and that was due to his super intensified compassion.


Tornado wrote: I disagree. I think Rosalie's discontentment is based on her desire to have an ideal fulfilled, and it just happened to be the desire to be a mother owing to the times in which she was raised.

What’s wrong with having or striving for one’s ideal? Did not Carlisle have one too? Carlisle was lonely and desperately wanting to have a family of his own, for the first time I might add, though he could not go against his beliefs of doing to someone else what had been done to him. Hence, Carlisle being a single lonely golden eyed vampire for about 250+ yrs. Until one day the opportunity presented itself to have his ideal fulfilled without going against his beliefs. Though he had no experience changing anyone before, he gave it a go. All the while, not knowing for sure what had to be done.

Side Note: Furthermore since I am on the subject of Carlisle, I have a question for everyone, why is it that no one is upset that Carlisle changed dying Rosalie only because he thought she would be great for Edward, being that she was soo beautiful as a human and it would have been a “waste” to let her die. Which means to me, Carlisle would have let her die if she was average or less than average looking. The negative aspects of the “end not justifying the means”, comes to mind in this circumstance here, big time. At least Rosalie (and Esme for that matter) had Bella’s consent to do ALL Rosalie and Esme could for the child AND Bella’s choice to die and be transformed. Rosalie did not cause or speed up Bella’s death in any way.
Side Note over.

Okay, back to my responses.

Also, I don’t agree that Rosalie wouldn’t have wanted to be a mother if she would have grown up in Bella’s time. Wanting to be a mother is still in style in the USA. The liberal times of our day tell us that women can have it all; children, education, career and all simultaneously and all with or without a husband. Not to mention, all the modern sciences available to women who desire motherhood.

Further, I don’t think it’s fair to ask Rosalie to do as Esme did. Emmett and Rosalie cannot sire anyone. Nor do I think Rosalie (who thinks the grave is better than the golden eyed lifestyle) or Emmett would ever want to. In addition, what are the chances that a vampire is going to come knocking on Rosalie’s door to offer themselves to be part of her family and request that Rosalie & Emmett be their parents? Usually when a vampire joins a coven at the most they get to be a brother, sister, mate or guard/servant. I think Alice and Jasper may be the first, and I think the only, to be adopted into a coven and have the leader consider them their children without siring them. Rosalie and Emmett are not leaders of their very own family/coven, and even if they were, what are the chances that a vampire will come knocking on their door wanting to be adopted by them? It’s not like Esme went looking for them. In any event, unfortunately for Rosalie, her dream of motherhood died that horrific fateful night, when all her rights and liberties were violated by others. In a sense, Rosalie was robbed and frozen with the anger in her IMO equally painful golden eyed vampire state.

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Jazz Girl ~

Jazz Girl wrote: The irony is that, as you so keenly observed, Rosalie’s transformation when she was so emotionally desiring a child made her more ready for a child. It did enhance those qualities that allowed her to overcome her own nature. But, those were not characteristics or abilities she had as a human. Thus, where she had a better chance of being a good mother as a vampire, she was denied the possibility.

Venom can’t enhance something that is NOT there. Just like all of Rosalie’s negative qualities were enhanced, so were her positive ones.

Jazz Girl wrote: She believed Ness would be her baby because she believed Bella was going to die. All of her catering to Bella was a means to an end. She could put her own irritation with the weak stupid human aside for a few weeks to get what she wanted in the end.

Isn’t Esme doing the same thing but in a different way? As it has already been pointed out, if something happens to Bella Esme would be the next in line, being that she is the grandmother and Rosalie is just the Aunt. Though, I believe, Rosalie would still have the same access to Nessie as she has now.

Jazz Girl wrote:We know that vampires, unless burned, can pretty much rebuild themselves with no lasting damage.

Jasper has many scares and let’s not forget Bree from the newborn army explicitly describing scars in “The Short Story Of Bree Tanner”.

Jazz Girl wrote:And, she also knew Emmett would never let Edward near her either way.

I could be wrong, but I don’t think Emmett has won a play-fight with mind-reading Edward yet.
Rosalie, and Esme, Edward’s loving mother for that matter, did not take pleasure in hurting Edward when siding with Bella’s CHOICE and making it difficult for Edward to get his way.


Jazz Girl wrote:But, something tells me that Rosalie was not the picture of patient acceptance and that there might have been some harsh words spoken, possibly about having to relocate before she was ready, or her having to stare at his red eyes for several more months.

Rosalie did not seem that upset when she thought Bella killed those hikers. I don’t see her getting bent out of shape for Emmett, her vampire-mate.


Jazz Girl wrote:But, consider the possibility of Ness as more human than vampire, a race that Rosalie has openly scorned as useless, helpless and a waste. Would she have continued to dote so if her niece wasn’t so amazingly gifted, was more like a normal human newborn, with all of the weaknesses and driving and constant needs? I think the answer is no.

Rosalie would have been a good a mother as anyone else, regardless of the child’s capabilities. Again, she did not know if the child would be more human, or more vampire, or deformed. But, she was willing to risk it all. Like I mentioned late last week, Alice is NOT the only one living vicariously through Bella.

Jazz Girl wrote:To say otherwise would be the same as saying that someone who kidnapped a child because they couldn’t have a child of their own could still be a good parent.

Definition of Kidnapping: “The crime of unlawfully seizing and carrying away a person by force or Fraud, or seizing and detaining a person against his or her will with an intent to carry that person away at a later time.”
I don’t see how this definition applies in Rosalie’s case, it was ALWAYS WITH Bella’s CONSENT & BY Bella’s CHOICE to have Rosalie do ALL that she did. I like to believe Bella was actually counting on Rosalie loving and protecting the child as Bella would, should something had happened. Like I said momma-Bella made short term and long term arrangements for her child’s care.
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Re: Explorations

Postby Tornado » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:13 pm

I disagree, VS. There is no evidence that ANY GOLDEN EYED vampire, apart from Edward and Rosalie, are discontented with their lot at any time. There is no evidence that Esme was discontented with her lot before she fell in love with Carlisle; we know so little about her story it is impossible to tell. SM has said that they fell in love quickly, so I don't think there would have been time to see if she developed discontent in that life. And you can't say that Emmett would have been a discontented vampire without Rosalie because he never got to experience that. And given the negative emotions that Jasper experienced from hunting humans it is likely that, even if he had met Alice, if they'd had no inkling of who the Cullens were or thought of joining them, his depression would have continued to some extent, because experiencing the emotional death of humans was what plagued him, not the desire for a mate. There is no indication that Garrett is not content as a vampire, whether red eyed or golden eyed. He just happens to fall in love with a golden eyed vampire, so probably will adopt that lifestyle to please her, but there's no evidence that it's an issue for him.

You argument was based on discontent. There's no evidence that the Denalis were ever discontented with their lot as golden eyed vampires. Their discontent arose from the same cause as Jasper's - because they were killing humans. But there is no sign of discontent with their lifestyle as golden eyes. Would they be happy if someone turned up and they fell in love with them? I'm sure. But they're not miserable without it.

Your case can only be valid if you have golden eyed, CELIBATE (a condition you brought in in your previous post) vampires who are discontented. My point still stands. There is only one of those in the entire saga, and you cannot prove your point of view with only one test case. Everyone else who is golden eyed we meet is not celibate, and, as we don't experience any time with them when they were, there is no way of telling how they would have reacted. Please stop trying to build a case on no evidence.

Violet Sunlight wrote:What’s wrong with having or striving for one’s ideal?


There's nothing wrong with striving for an ideal. Not at all. I was just pointing out that Rosalie's ideal seems to be based more on what was popular when she was human, than on what is a genuine desire of her heart. She shows no sign of mothering anyone, so I doubt that that is what she is really interested in. If she was interested in being a mother, I think, like Esme, she would find a way to mother someone. She does not even show the slightest interest in that with anyone at any stage.
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Re: Explorations

Postby Jazz Girl » Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:53 pm

Violet Sunlight wrote:
corona wrote: And would Rosalie feel "wretched" again if Bella had actually left Edward as she advised her to do?

Wasn’t Edward giving Bella the same advice?


No, not at that point. Once they return from Volterra, he has accepted that it is literally not possible for them to be separated. If Bella were to have a mental break (the only reason I can honestly think of for her to choose to leave Edward) after that, the consequences would be devastating across the board.

Violet Sunlight wrote:
corona wrote: I take SM's statement that Rosalie loves her family as absolute, and I don't question that. I can't come to any other conclusion than something is seriously wrong with her. She is mental. Something is broken.

Yes, Roslie is frozen with anger because of being violated. Although, being a vampire has its' benefits, at the end of the day, she just can’t shake off the anger. Though, I think she is doing much better due to Nessie in her life.


There is no evidence that feelings at the moment of transformation are frozen in place with personality characteristics and physical development. If that were so, wouldn't Rosalie (actually most vampires) also have a heightened sense of fear based upon their fear of the vampire turning them?

Violet Sunlight wrote:That’s correct. Although, I did not just base my theory on 2 subjects only. I have based it on the following:

Edward – 87yrs being single and discontent with the golden eyed lifestyle until vampire-Bella and Nessie come into the picture.

Bella – Not wanting to be a golden eyed vampire without Edward.

Rosalie – About 2 yrs being single and discontent with the golden eyed lifestyle until vampire-Emmett comes into the picture and then she is half-content. Then more than half, but not fully, when Nessie comes into the picture.

Esme – Accepting the golden eyed lifestyle happily because of her romantic affections for Carlisle, who she’d always idolized.

Emmett – Waking up as a vampire and accepting the change and already being in love with his “Angel” Rosalie.

Alice – 1st vision is of Jasper and then sometime after comes the vision of her golden eyed lifestyle.

Jasper – Changes from red eyed lifestyle to golden eyed lifestyle because of Alice, his mate.

Garrett – Changing from red eyed lifestyle to the golden eyed lifestyle for Kate and not changing way back when, when he first met Carlisle.

Denali Sisters – Changing from red eyed to golden eyed lifestyle because of the remorse they felt for killing their intimate human male friends, who they felt strong romantic affections for. Their change was not because they value humanity as a whole like Carlisle. However, at least their golden eyed lifestyle benefits humanity as a whole even if it just winded up being a positive side effect and not the main reason why they chose it. By the way, I don’t believe their promiscuous lifestyle is as fulfilling as a monogamous one. I think the Denali Sisters believe a monogamous relationship is more fulfilling than a promiscuous one, hence Irina falling for Laurent and Kate giving Garrett a try is proof of that for me. However, their long term promiscuity leads me to believe they believe sometimes a counterfeit gets you by until the ideal comes around.

Carmen & Eleazar – Changing from red eyed lifestyle to golden eyed lifestyle as a mated couple, not before when they were single.

Laurent – Changing from the red eyed lifestyle and somewhat giving the golden eyed lifestyle a try because of curiosity and then being somewhat involved, but not really, with Irina too, but then he gives up the golden eyed lifestyle and Irina at the same time.

Carlisle – The only golden eyed vampire in the Twi-Universe who was single for 250+ yrs and was satisfied, (though he was lonely), with the golden eyed lifestyle, regardless of having a mate or not, or having promiscuous endeavors or not, was Carlisle, and that was due to his super intensified compassion.


I think the larger point is that there is no way you can generalize the improvement in the attitude of any of these individuals to ONLY the presence or absence of a mate in their life, versus a nurturing relationship with a parent-sire, particularly when it is impossible to separate the circumstances that led them to being changed from the mate-relationship itself. Bella and Emmett are prime examples. Being turned was a direct consequence of their mate bond. There's no way to say whether or not they would have or could have been content as a vegetarian vampire in the absence of their mate. Emmett, I'm pretty sure, could have been quite content as it is just his nature to be so. Also, in addition to pretty much patently ignoring all of the other dynamics involved in their level of contentment or discontentment with their vampiric state, you are imposing your own definition contentment which automatically skews the "evidence" in the direction of your conclusion. Edward, for instance, while not happy, had learned to find contentment in his learning, music and other pursuits. After his rebellion, he made the choice to return to and dedicate himself to the vegetarian lifestyle when he had no hope or expectation that he'd ever find a mate. But, when you look at his level of contentment pre and post Bella, there's no comparison. I think Rosalie is another perfect example. I'm fairly certain that her disdain for being a vampire of any kind hasn't just magically disappeared with Ness' appearance. Yes, she has found a greater level of acceptance of it, but she she is still discontent overall with changed.

Violet Sunlight wrote:Side Note: Furthermore since I am on the subject of Carlisle, I have a question for everyone, why is it that no one is upset that Carlisle changed dying Rosalie only because he thought she would be great for Edward, being that she was soo beautiful as a human and it would have been a “waste” to let her die. Which means to me, Carlisle would have let her die if she was average or less than average looking. The negative aspects of the “end not justifying the means”, comes to mind in this circumstance here, big time. At least Rosalie (and Esme for that matter) had Bella’s consent to do ALL Rosalie and Esme could for the child AND Bella’s choice to die and be transformed. Rosalie did not cause or speed up Bella’s death in any way.
Side Note over.


I've never believed the "waste" Carlisle refers to had anything to do with her looks. The waste to which he was referring was a the violent violation and death of a woman just stepping into her life and with so much ahead of her. In the face of witnessing that, and Rosalie's suffering as she died slowly, he couldn't bear it. That she might be a possible mate for Edward did cross his mind. But, I think that was a possibility that came to him after he had begun the transformation. It wasn't the reason he transformed her. No, Rosalie did not cause or speed up Bella's death. I don't think anyone here is arguing that. The point of contention, as it often does, comes back to her motivations, and the fact that she hid the true nature of them (or wasn't completely up front about them).

Violet Sunlight wrote:Further, I don’t think it’s fair to ask Rosalie to do as Esme did. Emmett and Rosalie cannot sire anyone.

Why? If, as you say, Rosalie could find it within herself to resist Bella's blood during Ness' birth, and allow herself to be bested by a creature she found contemptable at best in the best interest of the baby, why could she not have found the wherewithall to bite and not drink? If she was so very desperate to be a mother, wouldn't she be willing to make that sacrifice?

Violet Sunlight wrote:
Jazz Girl wrote: The irony is that, as you so keenly observed, Rosalie’s transformation when she was so emotionally desiring a child made her more ready for a child. It did enhance those qualities that allowed her to overcome her own nature. But, those were not characteristics or abilities she had as a human. Thus, where she had a better chance of being a good mother as a vampire, she was denied the possibility.

Venom can’t enhance something that is NOT there. Just like all of Rosalie’s negative qualities were enhanced, so were her positive ones.


Let me clarify. I'm saying that, when Rosalie was changed, her desire to have a child was at it's peak and had permeated her personality. The venom enhanced Rosalie's desire to have a child and that desire, enhanced by the venom, allowed her to set aside the more negative personality traits that would have made her a less-then-stellar mother as a human.

Violet Sunlight wrote:
Jazz Girl wrote: She believed Ness would be her baby because she believed Bella was going to die. All of her catering to Bella was a means to an end. She could put her own irritation with the weak stupid human aside for a few weeks to get what she wanted in the end.

Isn’t Esme doing the same thing but in a different way? As it has already been pointed out, if something happens to Bella Esme would be the next in line, being that she is the grandmother and Rosalie is just the Aunt. Though, I believe, Rosalie would still have the same access to Nessie as she has now.


Again, it comes back to motivation. Esme was not caring for Bella because her ultimate goal was to have the child. Esme's ultimate goal was to get Bella through the pregnancy and delivery alive so she could mother her own child. That wasn't Rosalie's ultimate goal, but it was a circumstance she was willing to accept to have access to the baby.

Violet Sunlight wrote:
Jazz Girl wrote:And, she also knew Emmett would never let Edward near her either way.

I could be wrong, but I don’t think Emmett has won a play-fight with mind-reading Edward yet.
Rosalie, and Esme, Edward’s loving mother for that matter, did not take pleasure in hurting Edward when siding with Bella’s CHOICE and making it difficult for Edward to get his way.


I'm not saying Emmett would have won, I'm saying he would have defended Rosalie and done his level best to prevent Edward from hurting her. As for whether Rosalie enjoyed hurting Edward, as I said, I don't know that she enjoyed it, but I'm pretty sure she didn't give a damn, either.


Violet Sunlight wrote:
Jazz Girl wrote:But, something tells me that Rosalie was not the picture of patient acceptance and that there might have been some harsh words spoken, possibly about having to relocate before she was ready, or her having to stare at his red eyes for several more months.

Rosalie did not seem that upset when she thought Bella killed those hikers. I don’t see her getting bent out of shape for Emmett, her vampire-mate.


The timing makes the two situations very different. Most importantly, when Bella possibly went after the hikers, they were already planning on leaving, thus there would have been no real effect on Rosalie's life, nothing to get her nose out of joint. In Emmett's case, there would have been multiple repercussions in Rosalie's life, lots of reasons for her to be put out.

Violet Sunlight wrote:
Jazz Girl wrote:To say otherwise would be the same as saying that someone who kidnapped a child because they couldn’t have a child of their own could still be a good parent.

Definition of Kidnapping: “The crime of unlawfully seizing and carrying away a person by force or Fraud, or seizing and detaining a person against his or her will with an intent to carry that person away at a later time.”
I don’t see how this definition applies in Rosalie’s case, it was ALWAYS WITH Bella’s CONSENT & BY Bella’s CHOICE to have Rosalie do ALL that she did. I like to believe Bella was actually counting on Rosalie loving and protecting the child as Bella would, should something had happened. Like I said momma-Bella made short term and long term arrangements for her child’s care.


Rosalie was using Bella as a means to an end, a way to get a child she couldn't have, with absolutely no regard for Bella's wellbeing. In that, there is no difference. Yes, Bella asked for her help. But, there were plenty of times when Bella called Rosalie off, specifically with Edward. Yes, she wanted Rosalie to ensure her wishes were followed. But, I will not ever be convinced that Bella intended Rosalie to care for the child. Bella was terrified of Rosalie, uncomfortable in her presence at the very least. Bella was completely convinced that she would deliver, be changed and have her family with Edward at her side. I believe her plan was to deal with whatever fallout came from the clusterflop of a situation when she was strong enough and confident enough to do so.
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Re: Explorations

Postby Violet Sunlight » Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:20 pm

Hello everyone ~

Before I begin, I would like to clear up a few misconceptions of my viewpoints:
1. I never said Esme and Emmett were discontented being golden eyed vampires. However, I did say they had strong romantic feelings when they came out of the transformation process. They both thought they were in heaven.
2. I never said Nessie made Rosalie FULLY content with the golden eyed lifestyle.
3. When I spoke about sacrifices in my 6/13/12 post, the point I was making was that Rosalie was willing to sacrifice her connection to her opposing beloved family for the child. Meaning, she was willing to literally fight with ANYONE who wanted to end the child’s life and she was willing to sacrifice and/or disconnect from her safety net, her beloved Cullen family and all for the child’s welfare. I did NOT mean that it was a sacrifice for Rosalie to interfere with Bella & Edward’s relationship.

Okay here we go.

Tornado ~
I really am not trying to build a case without evidence. The point of my theory is, apart from SUPER-compassionate-Carlisle and his 250+ yrs of lonely celibacy as a content golden eyed vampire, there is NO example of a happy or content CELIBATE golden eyed vampire, yet. Regardless of what hypothetical circumstance that could have happened way back when or might happen sometime in the future. Apart from Carlisle, EVERY golden eyed non-CELIBATE vampire is HAPPY or CONTENT. This is just a pattern I noticed. Which made me believe that it would not be prudent to change someone and intend them to be a single/celibate golden eyed vampire. IMO, Carlisle found out the hard way with Edward. Which further made me believe that Carlisle would not be for changing someone so Rosalie can mother them. Not that Rosalie would want someone to be doomed to this life again due to her needs, and further doom them to a grumpy celibate golden eyed lifestyle. I mean red eyed vampires seem to not have problems being single/celibate. But the two cases of celibate golden eyed vampire were not even half-fulfilled or half-content though one of them had many hobbies, and the remainder of the golden eyed vampires were couples and happy golden eyed couples. I just wanted to see everyone’s point of view on it and from every angle. Thank you, and everyone else for sharing. I understand you and others disagree. No problem. It was just a theory anyway.

Tornado wrote: There's nothing wrong with striving for an ideal. Not at all. I was just pointing out that Rosalie's ideal seems to be based more on what was popular when she was human, than on what is a genuine desire of her heart. She shows no sign of mothering anyone, so I doubt that that is what she is really interested in. If she was interested in being a mother, I think, like Esme, she would find a way to mother someone. She does not even show the slightest interest in that with anyone at any stage.

IMO, this is not fair. It would be like a fertile couple saying to an infertile couple, “if you really wanted children you would try harder”. Emmett and Rosalie are not capable of siring anyone. If Rosalie would have been able to change anyone she would had done it for dying Emmett, who reminded her of Vera’s baby. But, she traveled a very long distance to have Carlisle do it. Moreover, Rosalie lost it at the sight and smell of Bella’s blood, while helping deliver the very much desired and loved, infant Nessie, proving she is not up to the siring task of tasting someone’s blood and not giving into her feeding frenzy. In addition, Emmett well, he’s finally able to control himself, I don’t think it would be a good idea to push him passed his limits. Furthermore and as or more importantly, Esme did NOT make ANY effort to find Alice and Jasper, who are (please correct me if I am wrong) the only couple to be adopted as children by a coven in the Twilight Universe, that we know of anyway. Motherhood is a dead end for Rosalie and she knows it. At least mercifully though, she will get to be an amazing Aunt, where she is allowed to finally mother, to her delight, an infant as much as Bella and Edward allow. Which seems to be to her heart's contents, wherever that may or may not be.

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Jazz Girl ~ Before I begin, some of my responses to you are in my responses to Tornado.

Jazz Girl wrote: No, not at that point. Once they return from Volterra, he has accepted that it is literally not possible for them to be separated. If Bella were to have a mental break (the only reason I can honestly think of for her to choose to leave Edward) after that, the consequences would be devastating across the board.

Wasn’t EC all about Edward, Jacob and I guess Rosalie telling Bella about her options?

Jazz Girl wrote: There is no evidence that feelings at the moment of transformation are frozen in place with personality characteristics and physical development. If that were so, wouldn't Rosalie (actually most vampires) also have a heightened sense of fear based upon their fear of the vampire turning them?

Isn’t Rosalie’s enhanced frozen character trait tenacity?

Jazz Girl wrote: Let me clarify. I'm saying that, when Rosalie was changed, her desire to have a child was at it's peak and had permeated her personality. The venom enhanced Rosalie's desire to have a child and that desire, enhanced by the venom, allowed her to set aside the more negative personality traits that would have made her a less-then-stellar mother as a human.

I don’t know about this, I haven’t read about enhanced personality traits canceling out other personality traits, regardless which is negative and which one is positive. Is there someone else in the twi-universe who might have had a similar reaction?

Jazz Girl wrote: Rosalie was using Bella as a means to an end, a way to get a child she couldn't have, with absolutely no regard for Bella's wellbeing. In that, there is no difference. Yes, Bella asked for her help. But, there were plenty of times when Bella called Rosalie off, specifically with Edward. Yes, she wanted Rosalie to ensure her wishes were followed. But, I will not ever be convinced that Bella intended Rosalie to care for the child. Bella was terrified of Rosalie, uncomfortable in her presence at the very least. Bella was completely convinced that she would deliver, be changed and have her family with Edward at her side. I believe her plan was to deal with whatever fallout came from the clusterflop of a situation when she was strong enough and confident enough to do so.

I don’t think Bella was afraid of Rosalie after their agreement. After all, she starts calling Rosalie, Rose. Not to mention, Rosalie was being a good nurse to Bella in her delicate condition. It’s kind of hard to be afraid of someone who is taking care of your basic needs, and so well. Yes, Bella called Rosalie off, but Rosalie submitted to Bella’s wishes. Bella was always in charge and everyone knew that. In any event, what’s wrong with Rosalie wanting what Bella has given her permission and/or consent to want? If Bella believed that she was going to be successfully transformed and Edward still was NOT pro-child, Bella knew she was going to be out of commission for about 3 days. She wouldn’t be around to protect and care for her child then.

Moreover, she thought it would be at least 2 years before she would be her civilized self again. Who was going to take care and protect the child then, not only from the father but even from her wild newborn mother or from anything else that might conspire against her? No one knew what kind of child this was going to be. What if the child would have been like the immortal children? Bella is covering all her basis as best she can. I mean, somebody would have to care and educate the child, and keep the baby safe from the parents, exposure to humans, and possibly wolves and whatever else came the child’s way. Even if Edward would be pro-child, Edward would be busy tending to wild newborn-vampire-Bella. Somebody needed to mother the child. Bella needed a nurturing co-mom and an aggressive protector. She could not do this alone. momma-Bella chose well.


Jazz Girl wrote: Regarding Rosalie’s supposed compromises, yes, I am speaking specifically about sacrificing one’s own wants and desires to provide for their children. Here again, I disagree. First and foremost, once Ness is born, Rosalie understands that her presence in Ness’ life is subject to Bella and Edward’s approval. I’m not saying that they would purposely cut her out of their lives. Family is of utmost importance to all of the Cullens. But, I also see Rosalie as being smart enough to know inherently that Edward and Bella call the shots and arguing with them where their daughter is concerned is likely to get her head bitten off, possibly literally. And, truthfully, we don’t ever see a situation where that is challenged. There is never a situation where Rosalie feels differently from Bella and Edward on something to do with Ness. So, we never see her submit to their authority. But, also, it is, again, the best of both worlds for Rosalie. She gets all of the joy of being a part of Ness’ life with none of the responsibility. She gets to be the cool aunt and never has to play the heavy.

From the time Bella and Rosalie make their agreement, we don’t ever see Rosalie act without Bella’s parental authority. So why assume Rosalie would? Since, EC Rosalie is living vicariously through Bella on important matters, and even more so as a pregnant mother. She wouldn’t want her parental authority challenged, so why would she go against Bella’s, ever. Whether as human or vampire. Regardless of what she is hoping to get out of it. She is not forcing her hopes on the circumstance, she is on standby while hoping to get what she wants, which is the opportunity to mother, in whatever capacity, an infant, that momma-Bella herself CONSENTED to. Very much like Carlisle was when he changed her, hoping that she would be to Edward what Esme is to him. Carlisle too was on standby and hoping he would get want he wanted for his son and all WITHOUT PREAPPROVED CONSENT.

Also, I would like to point out that there is a situation where Rosalie feels differently from Bella and Edward regarding Nessie, and that is Jacob. But, she knows she is not the parent, so she submits to Edward and Bella’s authority. In real life it works the same way, if one wants access to children, whether stranger or relative, one needs to go through the parents first. What’s wrong with being a childless cool Aunt who did everything the mother requested her to do to make sure the child would be born safely?

Jazz Girl wrote: As for her attitude towards Emmett, we can't say one way or the other how she reacted. But, something tells me that Rosalie was not the picture of patient acceptance and that there might have been some harsh words spoken, possibly about having to relocate before she was ready, or her having to stare at his red eyes for several more months.

I don't think that is likely. When something bothers Rosalie it's usually about someone else. Not her or her beloved vampire-mate who she unconditionally is forgiving of, even when he sides or somewhat sides with Edward, who she is constantly bickering with. Why would she be upset that Emmett slips when it is her fault he is in that condition? She is thanking her lucky stars she winded up with someone like Emmett who has a childlike attitude and considers her his "Angel".
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Re: Explorations

Postby Tornado » Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:25 pm

VS, you are basing your pattern on insufficient evidence.

We know (not counting Garrett or Bella, who become golden eyed so late in the books) twelve golden eyed vampires, and ALL of them, bar one, are not celibate. So you cannot "notice a pattern" of celibate ones being discontented when there is only one celibate vampire. There aren't enough celibate golden eyed vampires to prove that not being celibate is what makes them content. You'd need to have more discontented celibate vampires available to prove your point.

What's more, you can't just say, "Well, eleven of them aren't celibate, and they seem happy, so that must mean I'm right." In fact, of the two vampires in the group who are discontented, one is NOT celibate. So there is no reason to believe that celibacy has anything to do with discontentment in a golden eyed vampire. It depends more on personality and a lot of different circumstances. While these circumstances might, in some vampires, have something to do with the lack of a mate, it is clear in Rosalie's case that golden eyed vampires are quite capable of being discontented even with their soul mate.

Violet Sunlight wrote:IMO, this is not fair. It would be like a fertile couple saying to an infertile couple, “if you really wanted children you would try harder”.


Rubbish. It is nothing like that, and I am extremely annoyed that you would turn my comment into something so narrow minded. What I said was that if Rosalie was the kind of person who longed to be a mother because that was her heart's true desire, she would find a way to mother someone, regardless of whether it was a baby or someone who needs mothering. Esme has no baby - hers died at birth - but she mothers just about everyone she meets. Rosalie shows no inclination to mother anyone at all. She can't even show empathy with them. This is what leads me to doubt that her desire for motherhood is based on a desire of the heart, and is, in fact, based more on an ideal.

Violet Sunlight wrote:Emmett and Rosalie are not capable of siring anyone. If Rosalie would have been able to change anyone she would had done it for dying Emmett, who reminded her of Vera’s baby.


But does that mean it's impossible for her to EVER do it? No, it's possible she could develop the self control to do it in time. She may have even been able to do it then, but didn't want to take the risk, and it's fair enough that she would ask Carlisle rather than risk Emmett's future existence.

Violet Sunlight wrote:Furthermore and as or more importantly, Esme did NOT make ANY effort to find Alice and Jasper, who are (please correct me if I am wrong) the only couple to be adopted as children by a coven in the Twilight Universe,


So what? Where was she supposed to go to find them, especially when going to find them would mean leaving the rest of her family while they're in danger from the Volturi? She also knows that Alice can see her coming and, if Alice doesn't want to be found, Alice will make sure Esme doesn't find her. Esme 'cries' for their loss. What more can she do?
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Re: Explorations

Postby Violet Sunlight » Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:56 pm

Tornado wrote:
Rubbish. It is nothing like that, and I am extremely annoyed that you would turn my comment into something so narrow minded. What I said was that if Rosalie was the kind of person who longed to be a mother because that was her heart's true desire, she would find a way to mother someone, regardless of whether it was a baby or someone who needs mothering. Esme has no baby - hers died at birth - but she mothers just about everyone she meets. Rosalie shows no inclination to mother anyone at all. She can't even show empathy with them. This is what leads me to doubt that her desire for motherhood is based on a desire of the heart, and is, in fact, based more on an ideal.


My apologies for offending you, I meant no disrespect.

Sincerely,
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Re: Explorations

Postby emiko » Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:49 pm

Wow. This amount of hatred aimed at Rose is … well … pretty hard to take. I think. :shock: Yup, Rosalie Hale does have her flaws. She may be petulant, willful, bitter, immature … self-absorbed … but she is also loyal, self-disciplined, determined and has bonded very strongly with the other Cullens. Even though she is no beacon of utter selfless love, she cares for those people. Stephanie tells us that her self-absorption often prevailsbut not always. In New Moon, when she thinks that she has harmed Edward (and therefore her family), she is ashamed and begs for forgiveness from both Bella and Edward. And I wouldn’t be surprised if she apologized for her behavior to the whole family. Also, during the vote she is caring towards Bella. There is kindness when she talks to Bella in Eclipse. She kindly offers Alice and Bella a helping hand in preparing the bride for her wedding. And so on.

Bella calls Rosalie after witnessing Edward’s behavior after he finds out about the pregnancy. He terrifies his wife with his behavior. Bella sees nothing wrong with their baby. She’s happy. She thinks that her husband also cares about the little ‘nudger’. In Bella’s words: “I’d never really understood Rosalie’s pain and resentment before. I’d never imagined myself a mother, never wanted that. It had been a piece of cake to promise Edward that I didn’t care about giving up children for him, because I truly didn’t. … This child, Edward’s child, was a whole different story. I wanted him like I wanted air to breathe. Not a choice—a necessity.„ So, Bella loves her child. But Edward has other ideas about it. “Don’t be afraid. We’ll be home in sixteen hours. You’ll be fine. Carlisle will be ready when we get there. ... “We’re going to get that thing out before it can hurt any part of you. Don’t be scared. I won’t let it hurt you.” And then Bella freaks out. “Edward had just called my little nudger a thing. He said Carlisle would get it out. “No,” I whispered. I’d gotten it wrong before. He didn’t care about the baby at all. He wanted to hurt him. The beautiful picture in my head shifted abruptly, changed into something dark. My pretty baby crying, my weak arms not enough to protect him.… What could I do? Would I be able to reason with them? What if I couldn’t? Did this explain Alice’s strange silence on the phone? Is that what she’d seen? Edward and Carlisle killing that pale, perfect child before he could live? “No,” I whispered again, my voice stronger. That could not be. I would not allow it.„

So, Bella is afraid/terrified that they will kill her child. So far none had asked for her opinion on the matter. As is Edward's wont, BTW; he does love to overreact. Yet, if Bella wants the child to live she needs an ally. Someone who understands the yearning for a baby. At that point Kaure has already told her that she will die. But Bella has other plans; she hopes to carry the child to term and then be changed so as to survive. She deceives Edward in thinking that she is all for abortion; in the meantime she calls Rosalie to explain the situation: Edward and Carlisle want to do this but I want to do this and I'm asking for you to side with me. “I found the number I wanted, one I had never called before in my life. I pressed the “send” button and crossed my fingers. “Hello?” the voice like golden wind chimes answered. “Rosalie?” I whispered. “It’s Bella. Please. You have to help me.”

She must give birth to this child. For Bella, this is her one and only opportunity to give birth to Edward's child. She knows that it will be a difficult pregnancy. But it's worth it. And, in my opinion, Rosalie understands Bella's position. Bella can give birth to her husband’s child. They can have what she and Emmet will never have. For Rosalie that child is worth fighting for. Bella and Edward have this one chance and they should not miss it. It won’t happen ever again. During the pregnancy Rosalie never ever does anything against Bella’s will. Or anything to harm Bella or the child.

Edward is only angry at Rose until he hears the baby’s thoughts. We see a perceptible difference in his behavior towards her and Bella (not to mention the ’it’) … even ‘the dog’ perceives it; the way the three of them (is Carlisle included by phone?) discuss and agree that they should not delay and wait for the child to come out by himself. “Waiting, as we have been, for the child to be ready, that was insanely dangerous. At any moment it could have been too late. But if we’re proactive about this, if we act quickly, I see no reason why it should not go well. Knowing the child’s mind is unbelievably helpful. Thankfully, Bella and Rose agree with me. Now that I’ve convinced them it’s safe for the child if we proceed, there’s nothing to keep this from working.” The goal here is to keep both Bella and the baby alive and well. They peacefully and calmly (finally) discuss their options and decide to proceed in the best interests of the mother and the child. Rosalie has no qualms with that. Does anyone honestly believe that Edward would allow Rose anywhere near his wife and child if she was as greedy and immoral as some have set her up to be?! I mean, during the birth Edward works closely with Rosalie; there is no trace of mistrust on Edward’s part. Not only during the pregnancy (well, in the latter part that is) but afterwards; Edward has no problem whatsoever leaving Reneesme with her. Bella also has no problems with that. She asks Rosalie to take care of her daughter. Reneesme herself cares about Rose; she plays with Rose and Emmett. There is not one incident where Rosalie tries to superimpose herself over Bella and Edward as the child’s parent (or something else). Not even at the clearing, when Bella and Edward seeing no other way than to send Reneesme away with Jacob to keep her safe, does Rosalie act selfishly towards the child. Reneesme’s parents get to decide about their child’s future. Rosalie says her goodbyes to Emmet. In my opinion, Rosalie has never behaved immorally towards that child or towards Bella and Edward during and after the pregnancy. She gave valuable councils; she was willing to act in the best interests of the child, Bella, Edward, and her family. She may not be gentle in expression or bearing but that doesn’t mean she is uncaring and unloving or lacking in goodwill. She has her flaws but she is no monster.

You know, whenever I read Rosalie’s chapter (in Eclipse) where she tells us the good, the bad and the ugly about herself, I see a great lesson to be learned from her experience. Here we have two 18 year (well, technically speaking) old girls (at long last) talking; one girl tells the other (humbly and honestly) of the mistakes she has made in her life and bids the other girl to be careful and thoughtful in her decisions; she hadn’t been and she has paid dearly for that. And she is still paying. Bella doesn’t understand yet what Rose is trying to tell her but she will. And she does. I find it very touching that Bella remembers (during her change/burning) what Rosalie told her. How she draws strength from those words; the strength she needs not to make it even more painful for Edward.

I think that people forget that Bella actually loves/cares about Rosalie; Rosalie is one of the people Bella wants to live for (at least according to Bella Swan herself). You don’t get to be on that/such a list if you haven’t done something good for Bella. I think that Bella, Rose, Emmet and Esme were very courageous in wanting the child to live and in fighting for her when no one else would. Not even the child’s father.
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Re: Explorations

Postby Jazz Girl » Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:52 am

Violet Sunlight, as in almost all other situations, we are just going to have to agree to disagree. You are steadfastly convinced of Rosealie's conversion, where I see only manipulation, duplicity and cold calculation. Never the 'tween shall meet, so let us call it a wash and move on.

On a wholly new topic, I had a conversation today with my sister-in-law, a physician, and she posed aquestion to me that I shocked me. Tornado especially will understand that that never happens to me. So, I thought I would pose it here and find out your thoughts. She asked me if I thought it was possible Bella had a medical condition that contributed to her predicaments and subsequent transformation (yes, she had a direction but I'll hold off until I get thoughts) .
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Re: Explorations

Postby Tornado » Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:27 am

Hm, by predicaments do you mean her clumsiness, the fact that she smelled appealing to vampires, the fact that she seemed to be drawn towards people who were supernatural, or all of the above?

I don't know much about medical conditions, but I think it's possible there could have been something in her physiognomy that contributed to one or all of these things.
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Re: Explorations

Postby Violet Sunlight » Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:58 pm

Jazz Girl wrote: On a wholly new topic, I had a conversation today with my sister-in-law, a physician, and she posed aquestion to me that I shocked me. Tornado especially will understand that that never happens to me. So, I thought I would pose it here and find out your thoughts. She asked me if I thought it was possible Bella had a medical condition that contributed to her predicaments and subsequent transformation (yes, she had a direction but I'll hold off until I get thoughts) .

Wow! Very interesting and deep topic. I can’t tell you how many times I changed my responses before finally settling on this one:

I think Bella, and Edward for that matter, had a spiritual condition. Bella is the lamb that was created/authored to fall “unconditionally and irrevocably” in love with the lion and Edward was the masochistic lion created/authored to fall in love with the lamb. Subsequently, all things leading Bella to her; destined transformation, her semi-immortal life and future by Edward’s side.
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