Breaking Dawn 2-The Discussion Before the End

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Re: Breaking Dawn 2-The Discussion Before the End

Postby Violet Sunlight » Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:48 pm

Hello everyone, :wave:

corona:lol: Hilarious as always. Your comments from yesterday are grossly true . . . but hilarious. :lol: And thank you for the book and movie battle number breakdown. I too think the Cullen side would have had a very good shot at winning like you said with Bella & let’s not forget Zafrina. They had a good offense and defense and especially if Bella’s theory (Jane and Alec not knowing how to fight) was true. The odds that the Cullens could win were very good indeed. But in the movie there are 70 on the Volturi side, the field just looks too lopsided. Even if the French Coven is on the Cullen side I don’t see how that would make a huge difference. Unless they have some sort of phenomenal gift or something.

Suzan – Like corona said your theory is feasible. I’ve seen something like that happen in another movie I happen to be a fan of. In the third X-Men movie, main characters were killed before and during their final battle. But the battle was won by the good guys and then the movie was over and in the credits there was a scene where one of the main characters (thought to be dead) wakes up from a coma, hence what we just saw never happened. :o That was the first time, for me anyway, where the ending didn’t happen in the movie itself but in the movie’s credits. That ending took me for a loop and left me just thinking, whoa what just happened? :scratch:

You know in a way I’m frustrated the Twilight movies are different than the books (there are things I don’t agree 100% with) but in a way it’s kind of better that way. For one thing, we get to see something new and for another we all get to be (HOPEFULLY) pleasantly surprised.

Again, CAN’T WAIT!!! CAN’T WAIT!!!
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Re: Breaking Dawn 2-The Discussion Before the End

Postby corona » Sat Sep 29, 2012 12:38 pm

VS, you are right about Jane and Alec, they were actually out of the fight since they were needed in case someone took out Bella, which was their only hope. If we discount Renata also (Bella did) and Bella is held back, then they had parity at 26 each, at least by the time Alice returns. Throw in the wolfpack and the talents of the Cullen allies and I'm sure the Volturi would have lost.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Breaking Dawn 2-The Discussion Before the End

Postby Violet Sunlight » Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:19 pm

Yes, corona EXACTLY. In the book the Volturi were seriously outnumbered (thanks to the wolves) and supernaturally powerless (thanks to Bella). Unlike (what seems like) the BD2 trailer, in the book the Volturi did not depend on their witnesses fighting with them. Although, we know they were willing. But in the book, I think the numbers are even worse for the Volturi than you figured. I’ll explain in a moment.

Regarding Jane & Alec: I was referring to the Cullen side POV, you know, when Kate and Vladimir say something like they would give Jane and Alec the beat-down and destroy them. Also, I had forgotten about Renata. You’re right, she would not be one of the ones fighting.

Come to think of it, now that you mention the Volturi’s POV, if we look at things from Aro’s POV he would not have had any of the guard members with special abilities fighting knowing what Bella was capable of. He would not want to risk losing his prized possessions or treasured pieces. Consequently, there would be 11 Volturi individuals not fighting (not counting the wives): Aro, Marcus, Caius, Jane, Alec, Renata, Chelsea & Afton (they’re a packaged deal and without Chelsea what would keep the supernatural strong bond in the guard and coven), Corin (I personally think she is as, if not more, important than Chelsea, she keeps Marcus and the wives content AND she keeps Chelsea content or addicted to the Volturi too), Heidi (she’s the one who makes dinner deliveries, although someone else could do the job, but not as good as Heidi) and finally Demetri. I think they would not want to lose Demetri being he is the world’s best tracker and now that the Volturi know they are outnumbered and powerless to Bella/Cullens Allies I would think they might give the rejected applicants another look.

In conclusion, this is how I figure the numbers (please correct me if I’m wrong).

Book Battle Field scene
Cullen Allies: 27 fighting Vampires + 16 fighting wolves = 43 Total
Volturi Side: 18 fighting Vampires and zero fighting witnesses = 18 Total

Hence 18 v. 43 = :o nightmare for Volturi (they really came unprepared).

Presumably, though not confirmed, BD2 Battle Field scene/trailer
Cullen Allies: 24 fighting Vampires + 17 fighting wolves = 41 Total
Not counting Alice, Jasper & Kachiri because I didn’t see them in the trailer.

Volturi Side: 70 (we see in trailer) – 13 (Volturi coven & 8 guard members) = 57 total
I’m not sure about the number 13 but I counted around 10 at the battle field’s fire, so 57 roughly give or take 2 or 3.

Hence 57 v. 41 = hard work in store for the Cullen side, especially if Bella is fighting (as we see in the trailer) and not concentrating on shielding the right people. Although, Zafrina could blind multiple people at the same time so there’s still hope in this scenario. Benjamin has pretty cool tricks too. But they are cutting it dangerously close.

Lastly, Unaccounted BD2 Variables that we know of: French coven, Alice, Jasper and Kachiri. Also, I didn’t think they would have Jacob and Renesmee running away and possibly fighting so maybe Huilen and Nahuel would be fighting and/or running too. Also, I’m probably missing a whole bunch of other unaccounted variables that I should be noticing plus all the unaccounted variables that are in the movie we don't know of but these are my figures as I see them now.

Please feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. It’s late and I’m tired so I’m sure I messed up somewhere.
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Re: Breaking Dawn 2-The Discussion Before the End

Postby corona » Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:58 am

VS, you are right about the troop issues there at the end, although I'm going to expand it a bit.

First, the full Volturi Guard was there primarily there for intimidation and as a statement to the witnesses for taking out such a large coven. A very dangerous coven too, according to the report by Jane after witnessing the prior newborn army defeat.

They had no expectation of an actual fight, it was highly unlikely given Alec's gift, and even Chelsea's.

At the end, the Volturi fighters still wanted to fight, but vampires get a little crazy once the bloodlust starts flowing.

From Aro's point of view, the obvious strategy at the end was a blitz on Bella. He would obviously NOT want to engage in the battle himself, or with Caius and Marcus, or with his other talented vamps. However a blitz attack that failed would have decimated his Guard and left everyone he held back in an extremely vulnerable position. The best chance for success would have been to send his talented vamps in as well (with the exception of Alec and Jane), but he would hate having to do that. Things had become way too risky. When Aro shows stress right before Alice returns it is apparent to me that he is considering all options and doesn't like any of them.

When Alice returns she not only brings with her a face-saving option for Aro, she also returns with Jasper who is extremely dangerous himself.

***********************

As to what is going on in the movie, I really have no idea. The Volturi obviously have a lot more vamps than in the book. I would say the witnesses are joining in the battle, but since they decided to completely change everything up even that assumption may well be wrong.

In my opinion, you are right, the BD2 movie battle appears to show the Cullen allies as being grossly outnumbered, so I don't have any idea what is going on. It's pretty obvious that the only way to have a pitched battle with the Cullens victorious is to have their talents being massively successful in that battle.

As far as the IMDB listing for actors, only Santiago, who had no talent, shows up as a new named Volturi vamp, so Chelsea and Corin and Renata and even Heidi might not make an appearance. That makes the small contingent that appears to stay back from the fight a little easier to deduce as the wives, Jane and Alec, and perhaps Aro and his "brothers".
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Breaking Dawn 2-The Discussion Before the End

Postby Chernaudi » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:50 am

Sorry I haven't frequented this thread, and this is probably more appropriate for the science section (and it's kinda a joke, after all), but I wonder if, say, having Guyver I and/or Guyver III from Bio-Booster Armor Guyver on the Cullen side would swing things in their favor?

I have my own theories about that, but it might run head on into the canon of my fan fic that I'm writing. However, I'm one who'd love to see at least one of the Guyvers slash apart countless members of the Volturi and vaporize the survivors, that's just how I am in regards to them. But as I said, it would run head long into the canon of my fan fic that's still being developed.

Now, back to real life. I do think that Aro was caught in a no-win situation. He made the trip to Forks to use Nessie as a bartering tool to force the Cullens into an alliance with him, namely Bella, Edward, Alice and possible Nessie herself after he found out what she was. But since the Cullens would rather die than be enslaved, Aro was pretty much screwed once his plans started to fall apart, and Caius didn't help his cause much, either.
Last edited by Chernaudi on Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Breaking Dawn 2-The Discussion Before the End

Postby Chernaudi » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:50 am

Double post.
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Re: Breaking Dawn 2-The Discussion Before the End

Postby Violet Sunlight » Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:39 pm

Hello everyone,

Sorry I took so long, my laptop has problems I’m in the process of getting it fixed. So I’ll be using the computers at the public library, work and my friends and families’ homes. You know, I don’t know how I ever lived without it.

On a brighter note, now that we are in October, I’m excited to be able to say that BD2 comes out next month. Woo-hoo!!!!

Chernaudi ~ Sorry, I am not familiar with Bio-Booster Armor Guyver. I still wish you the best with your fan fiction.
Chernaudi wrote:But since the Cullens would rather die than be enslaved, Aro was pretty much screwed once his plans started to fall apart, and Caius didn't help his cause much, either.
Agree.



corona ~
corona wrote: VS, you are right about the troop issues there at the end, although I'm going to expand it a bit.
:D Yay.


corona wrote: First, the full Volturi Guard was there primarily there for intimidation and as a statement to the witnesses for taking out such a large coven. A very dangerous coven too, according to the report by Jane after witnessing the prior newborn army defeat.

Hmmm. I would have thought, in BD’s case anyway, it would have been the other way around. Since the FULL Volturi Guard and Coven HAD to come along (I’m referring to Eleazar’s theory in Ch31 being the primary reason of why they ALL came and I’m also referring to Edward confirming it in Ch36) why not bring an audience? Aro probably brings an audience along when he decides to steal – I mean judge – members of smaller covens most of the time.


corona wrote:They had no expectation of an actual fight, it was highly unlikely given Alec's gift, and even Chelsea's.

I agree, they thought it was going to be business as usual. Certainly, nothing Alec and Chelsea couldn’t handle.

************************************************************
corona wrote: As far as the IMDB listing for actors, only Santiago, who had no talent, shows up as a new named Volturi vamp, so Chelsea and Corin and Renata and even Heidi might not make an appearance.

It’s a shame if BD2 doesn’t have Chelsea. There were only 3 powers that attacked Bella’s shield:
Chelsea’s fluttering pressures; Jane’s sharp jabs and Alec’s crawling mist.
A variety of powers is always nice.


corona wrote: That makes the small contingent that appears to stay back from the fight a little easier to deduce as the wives, Jane and Alec, and perhaps Aro and his "brothers".

I count about 9 at the trailer’s battle field’s fire. Although, I can’t be sure, the figures are too small. I really wish I knew someone who had zooming capabilities on their computer. I do believe it is the 5 members of the Volturi Coven and Jane and Alec. Though the others (if there are others) are a mystery.
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Re: Breaking Dawn 2-The Discussion Before the End

Postby Chernaudi » Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:52 am

Violet Sunlight: This may help: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bio_Booster_Armor_Guyver

I wrote to Corona about the sciencey stuff that I was referring to so I could write a good fan fic, based on what we know about Twilight vampires and such.

Also, Laney Gossip now says that this is a vision from someone. If so, from whom is it originating, and if Alice, she can't really see Nessie or the wolves. More liberties being taken with the script?
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Re: Breaking Dawn 2-The Discussion Before the End

Postby TwilightFan87 » Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:37 pm

All I remember from reading Entertainment Weekly is that both Melissa Rosenberg and Stephanie Meyer dreamed up the last 1/3 of the movie which they say is different from the book. I understand from a movie goers POV that they might expect more action during the big battle scene but I'm really curious to see how different it's going to be.

That's a good point I hadn't thought of..that if it was Alice's vision, how could she see the wolves and Hulien?
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Re: Breaking Dawn 2-The Discussion Before the End

Postby Suzan » Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:47 am

Talk about spoilers! Nikki Reed did an interview with MTV and talked about the bonus scene for BD2. But it sounds like she doesn't know for sure it's that scene. I'm SOOOOO hoping she's wrong!!! That would be the worst thing ever! To end The Saga like that?! As if it was all just a big joke! :evil: Don't get me wrong, I would love to see it. But it belongs on the DVD. It's so inappropiate for the actual movie!

Please Bill Condon! DO NOT PUT THAT SCENE IN THE CREDITS!!! :beg:
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