Explorations (**BD2 Movie Spoilers!**)

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Re: Explorations (**BD2 Movie Spoilers!**)

Postby Jazz Girl » Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:42 pm

Forgive my prolonged absence. I have been reading but because I wasn't a part of the original conversation, did not want to interrupt.

Corona~ Ironically, the declarations begin with Jacob committing the packs in the film, followed by the Denalis, Benjamin (and his exchange with Amun), then the Irish Coven and finally the Amazons. The Romanian kind of steal the thunder with Stefan's little comment about it not taking much.

With that, as well as a few other tweaks, I'm inclined to agree with many in the impression that the film is a much closer version to what SM wanted had she had the time and freedom to do so. Part of me enjoys that because I do think there were a few key changes that were vast improvements (not the least of which was not having to endure the mongrel's twisted version of events). But, at the same time, I'm still a purist at heart.

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Re: Explorations (**BD2 Movie Spoilers!**)

Postby Tornado » Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:59 pm

smitten_by_twilight wrote:My misunderstanding, corona. I see what you are saying here although I would shade it differently. I see Bella understanding in NM that Edward does not believe that turning her could ever be the best ... but she does not truly appreciate his attitude until the end of Eclipse, when her experiences have taught her the value of life. At the end of NM she is a bit cavalier about dismissing Edward's concerns during the vote. At the end of EC, she overturns Edward's ... enthusiasm ... to return to the original plan, because she finally really really understands why he needs it that way.


Which is the main reason why the movie version of this scene annoyed me so much. Rather than a clear sign of both people in this relationship willing to sacrifice what they held dear for the sake of the other, it was turned into an opportunity for Bella to say that it was more about her than it was about Edward.

corona wrote:I'm just wondering what the theories were on how that alternative scene would have played out. I know fanfics have their "romantic" bite scenes, but I think Edward was always planning on more of a clinical version.


Yes, I always thought it would be clinical, especially since they're planning to pump her with morphine before the bite. It would be on a gurney, most likely, with Carlisle standing by. Not a romantic setting.
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Re: Explorations (**BD2 Movie Spoilers!**)

Postby corona » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:36 pm

Tornado wrote:Which is the main reason why the movie version of this scene annoyed me so much. Rather than a clear sign of both people in this relationship willing to sacrifice what they held dear for the sake of the other, it was turned into an opportunity for Bella to say that it was more about her than it was about Edward.


Agreed, and this must have been a severe disappointment to anyone attaching great significance to that scene from the book.

I'm still wondering though a little about those sacrifices. I believe Bella sees the sacrifice as being worth it and is OK with it. I'm sure Edward knows the sacrifice will be worth it as well, but I'm not so sure he is ever going to be OK with it. I think Bella finally sees that too.

I'm just wondering. What if the real agreement there in the meadow was actually between Bella and Stephenie? Assume that Bella now shares more of Stephenie's bird's eye view of the situation. Stephenie wouldn't make the same choice, but her real moral problem is that Bella is unaware of the life she is choosing, what she is giving up, and what she is asking of Edward. Once Bella understands that and Stephenie is assured that Bella knows the pitfalls and will do her best to make things work, Stephenie doesn't have that problem anymore. Renesmee isn't actually the solution to a moral problem, it's a practical problem. And, of course, she wanted them to have a kid, natch.

Now, that's giving Bella a lot more credit than Stephenie actually showed us, but I suspect that while Stephenie (and Bella) often found Edward very frustrating in his obstinance, they also found the reasons behind it very admirable. I think SM needed Bella to see that before she could proceed (still going on this assumption).

I know this all sounds Edward-centric, but I actually think this is Bella-centric, in a very good way.

In that respect I don't see the Nessie solution as being a moral rescue at all, it was because Stephenie didn't want to take away from Edward the thing she loved most about him, and Bella finally sees that too. The pregnancy gives Bella the opportunity to take that choice away from Edward. Cruel to be kind, which she knew had to happen at some point.

[And I think it is arguable whether that would ever be Edward's "choice" under any storyline.]

I have a question. Does anyone know where the Edward outburt against Bella in BD1, the movie, came from? It wasn't in the book. You know which one I mean, where he accuses Bella of taking choices away from him? I'm just wondering if anyone has heard any comments about that scene from Stephenie and whether she approved of that. That DOES seem to be distillation of my thinking here. Yes, Bella is taking away your choice in this matter, suck it up, it's for your own good. This was the practical solution that Stephenie gave Bella, and Bella very well understood everything.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Explorations (**BD2 Movie Spoilers!**)

Postby Tornado » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:02 pm

corona wrote:I'm still wondering though a little about those sacrifices. I believe Bella sees the sacrifice as being worth it and is OK with it. I'm sure Edward knows the sacrifice will be worth it as well, but I'm not so sure he is ever going to be OK with it. I think Bella finally sees that too.


I don't know if Edward sees the sacrifice as worth it, even at the end of Eclipse (after all, there's still an element of doubt early on in BD). However, enough has happened to make him doubt his own judgement where Bella is concerned, so I think, at that point, he's trying to be more trusting. He still hasn't quite got there yet, though. It takes the discovery that Renesmee is not a monster and that Bella is just fine as a vampire to completely do away with his doubts.

corona wrote:I have a question. Does anyone know where the Edward outburt against Bella in BD1, the movie, came from? It wasn't in the book. You know which one I mean, where he accuses Bella of taking choices away from him? I'm just wondering if anyone has heard any comments about that scene from Stephenie and whether she approved of that. That DOES seem to be distillation of my thinking here. Yes, Bella is taking away your choice in this matter, suck it up, it's for your own good. This was the practical solution that Stephenie gave Bella, and Bella very well understood everything.


I haven't heard anything about that, no. I always thought it was possible that Edward had yelled at her when he first discovered what she was planning to do. We do know he was willing to force Bella to have an abortion. It was Rosalie's presence, with Emmett behind her, that stopped him. I can see him yelling at first, until he realised how sick it made her. By the time Jake is there he is quiet in Bella's presence, but that's probably because bitter experience showed him what happened if he wasn't. I think they just moved his objections to this scene.

Yes, it's interesting to reflect on the loss of his choice. Just as he took away Bella's choice in the matter when he left in New Moon, now Bella has taken away his choice by insisting that she have their child.
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Re: Explorations (**BD2 Movie Spoilers!**)

Postby corona » Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:54 pm

Tornado wrote:Yes, it's interesting to reflect on the loss of his choice. Just as he took away Bella's choice in the matter when he left in New Moon, now Bella has taken away his choice by insisting that she have their child.


Tornado, that was my exact thought. And each of them believe they need to, that it will be for the best, even as they are aware that this will hurt their partner.

Everything seems to come around to that conversation between Carlisle and Bella there at the beginning of NM. That seems logical to me, as Stephenie already had it mapped out pretty well by then.

I don't think Stephenie had any ambivalences at all by the end of EC. She had already spoken to Edward and he was adamant against changing Bella, so she had to break him sufficiently so that he would do it, but she didn't want to break him completely, finding his adherence to his conscience admirable. She had to get Bella on the same page as her so she could see that. Moral issues are resolved, the only remaining thing is getting Edward to bite. It's a conundrum, Edward HAS to be the one to bite (and he knows that), but I think Bella can see that Edward would always view that as a mark of selfishness.

That isn't to say you couldn't get a really interesting (and romantic) story with Edward sacrificing his conscience. That's a very human story, a very real story. But I don't think Stephenie would ever want Edward to do that. So, she takes away his free will in BD, and approves, since Bella sees the conundrum too and grabs the opportunity that Stephenie gives her.

And I do think Eclipse is confusing because Stephenie had to be very careful lest she give the whole game away.

And I don't think Stephenie did that to Edward because she considered their paths to be immoral, I think she did it because she loved and admired him and didn't want him to think less of himself. He had a Thomas More conscience with a Doubting Thomas complex who happened to be pretty good looking and smelled really good.

OK, I think I'm sticking with this theory, because I'm really liking Bella in this one.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Explorations (**BD2 Movie Spoilers!**)

Postby Jazz Girl » Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:00 pm

Tornado wrote:
corona wrote:I have a question. Does anyone know where the Edward outburt against Bella in BD1, the movie, came from? It wasn't in the book. You know which one I mean, where he accuses Bella of taking choices away from him? I'm just wondering if anyone has heard any comments about that scene from Stephenie and whether she approved of that. That DOES seem to be distillation of my thinking here. Yes, Bella is taking away your choice in this matter, suck it up, it's for your own good. This was the practical solution that Stephenie gave Bella, and Bella very well understood everything.


I haven't heard anything about that, no. I always thought it was possible that Edward had yelled at her when he first discovered what she was planning to do. We do know he was willing to force Bella to have an abortion. It was Rosalie's presence, with Emmett behind her, that stopped him. I can see him yelling at first, until he realised how sick it made her. By the time Jake is there he is quiet in Bella's presence, but that's probably because bitter experience showed him what happened if he wasn't. I think they just moved his objections to this scene.

Yes, it's interesting to reflect on the loss of his choice. Just as he took away Bella's choice in the matter when he left in New Moon, now Bella has taken away his choice by insisting that she have their child.


I have so many feelings about this scene. That scene, when the previews and trailers were released and I realized exactly what happened, had me terrified. I could not wrap my head around Edward not only yelling at Bella at that point, but then walking out on her. My original reaction was, "ABSOLUTELY NOT!! Edward would never have done it! He could barely stand to be further than arm's length from her or upset her, let alone scream at her and walk away!" But, especially once I saw it, the more I love it. First, to be absolutely clear, I am adamantly prochoice and I think that does tend to color my perception of this scene. I have to fight the urge to applaud Bella when she says so determinedly "this is my choice and no one else's" because she's absolutely right. But, remember, that statement is not in the books either, at least not in so many words. I think this is another case where SM's deeply held views on the subject prevented her from even adequately expressing the whole sphere of experiences. Because she is so opposed to the other side of the argument, she cannot show that it at least has merit. The way Bella worked the end around on Edward absolutely wrecks me. It's quite honestly one of the few moments in The Saga when I do question whether or not he should be with her. How do you, when you are supposed to love someone so absolutely, completely disregard even allowing them to express their feelings, let alone acknowledge them? This is probably the number one reason why I detest that we get this portion of the book from the mongrel's perspective. I can hope that there might have actually been a discussion, a conversation that ended in an impasse, but that at least the conversation took place. But, from what we see, it feels like no. It feels like, from the moment that she returned, Bella has been hiding behind Rosalie and allowing Edward to burn in his own misery.

Edward's outburst, to me, was absolutely necessary because HE's RIGHT! They ARE supposed to be partners and partners are supposed to communicate with one another, talk with each other, express fears and hopes and then reach understanding. No matter if the decision would have been the exact same, Bella owed Edward the conversation and I absolutely love that his rightful frustrations are given at least a voice. Yes, Edward did make a unilateral decision when he left in NM. He's always felt he knows better when it comes to the risks to Bella's life. And, yes, often, he's been wrong because, as SagaWard says himself, he's underestimated her. But, that's not the point. It's not about the fact that she was again proven right in the end. It is about the fact that, in stead of growing up and growing together, her behavior towards Edward shows her ignoring the way it felt to be treated that way and doing the exact same thing to him that he did to her. She makes a decision with only her own input, ignores his thoughts and feelings, and then hides behind someone else, using their own ulterior motives to completely shut him out until he accepts without reservation or objection what she wants. That isn't what partners, what spouses, what husband and wife, are supposed to do.

In the end, she's proven right and all ends up as it should be. But, maybe because Edward's pain and terror are so central to how I view things, I loved the fact that he at least was finally given the ability to express that to her. Yes, she's right when she says that he has to accept what is. But, it doesn't mean that he shouldn't get to say that it scares the crap out of him.
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Re: Explorations (**BD2 Movie Spoilers!**)

Postby Tornado » Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:00 pm

Jazz Girl wrote:Yes, Edward did make a unilateral decision when he left in NM. He's always felt he knows better when it comes to the risks to Bella's life. And, yes, often, he's been wrong because, as SagaWard says himself, he's underestimated her.


Not just her, either. In fact, not even mostly. He underestimates himself more than Bella. Everything he thinks about the situation is based on the belief that he is evil by nature. That's why Bella shouldn't be with him from the start. That's why, once he's decided that he can try a relationship with her, he has to leave anyway, because she's determined to become evil, too, and he can't bear that thought. That's why he thinks the baby is an evil that has to be destroyed. Because it's from him. That means, by definition, it must be evil.

While he does underestimate Bella, he also weighs everything based on the belief that he has never been able to get past, in spite of Carlisle's stellar example, in spite of Esme's love, in spite of everything that he has seen in his 100+ years of life. He can't get past the fact that vampires MUST be evil, simply because of their nature. It's that belief that leads to all the trouble.
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Re: Explorations (**BD2 Movie Spoilers!**)

Postby corona » Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:28 pm

Jazz Girl, well put.

Let me give one possible explanation for Bella's behavior, because her shutting Edward out has always bothered me. It's the only explanation I can come up with.

Bella does show an aloofness, coldness, flinty edge, what have you. She definitely is making a unilateral decision and taking away Edward's choices and not even discussing it with him. She doesn't even tell him the true reason why she wants this child, because it is his child.

I think the only thing that is holding that house together is that Carlisle is there and he believes it is at least possible to deliver this child without it killing Bella. That, and the fact that Edward isn't quite sure he has all of the facts.

Bella knows that any discussion with Edward is fruitless, but I agree that she should communicate with him under any normal circumstance.

What if Bella thinks that any discussion with Edward will not just be fruitless, though, but might convince him that her reasoning is absolutely wrong? Right now he is unsure what is going on in her mind. What if she makes her best case, a fully honest one, lays everything out, and Edward believes he now fully understands the situation and that Bella is just dead wrong? Horrifically wrong. What she believes is the best part of this child, Edward, is the most monstrous (he is convinced).

What would Edward do if a conversation with him only succeeds in convincing him that he is absolutely right and Bella is absolutely wrong, now that Bella has been helpful enough to completely explain her side and remove any doubt?

I don't know what would happen. Edward might try something, though, regardless of Rosalie and Emmett. He does have those tendencies when he is convinced he is right.

That's the only defense I can think of to give Bella. I believe she does the right thing, but those chapters were painful, and Jacob didn't help.

Tornado,

I was about ready to post when I saw your message, and mine kinda dovetails in with yours.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Explorations (**BD2 Movie Spoilers!**)

Postby smitten_by_twilight » Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:34 pm

Tornado wrote:Yes, it's interesting to reflect on the loss of his choice. Just as he took away Bella's choice in the matter when he left in New Moon, now Bella has taken away his choice by insisting that she have their child.


Wow, Tornado, nice point. Turnabout is fair play. He took away her choice without telling her anything about what he was doing or why - now she has done the same.

corona wrote:What if Bella thinks that any discussion with Edward will not just be fruitless, though, but might convince him that her reasoning is absolutely wrong? Right now he is unsure what is going on in her mind. What if she makes her best case, a fully honest one, lays everything out, and Edward believes he now fully understands the situation and that Bella is just dead wrong? Horrifically wrong. What she believes is the best part of this child, Edward, is the most monstrous (he is convinced).


Very nice, corona. At the end of Eclipse Bella avoids giving Edward the true reason she is suddenly doing things to make everyone else happy - because everything in her life is about him. She knows that this would be an unacceptable answer to him. She has similar simple reasons for wanting Renesmee, it's not like she has some huge complex philosophy about it. It is Edward's child, and the thought of hurting Edward's child is almost as unbearable as - or more than - the thought of hurting Edward. She doesn't particularly want a child at all - but she pictures a tiny Edward in her arms, and that's the end of the story. To Edward that would be a complete abomination.

Tornado wrote:While he does underestimate Bella, he also weighs everything based on the belief that he has never been able to get past, in spite of Carlisle's stellar example, in spite of Esme's love, in spite of everything that he has seen in his 100+ years of life. He can't get past the fact that vampires MUST be evil, simply because of their nature. It's that belief that leads to all the trouble.


Y'all are geniuses here (or really really obsessed, or both ;) ). If Edward believed he was halfway decent he probably would never have taken the risk of trying to suck James' venom out of Bella's hand.

And not to forget - Jazz Girl, well thought out and passionate post overall, and pretty much exactly my feelings. On reflection I wonder if Rob perhaps played that scene more like a human (angry) and less like a vampire (hurt), just because I don't know if Edward would even be comfortable losing control enough to yell at Bella. But it's a very fine line, and an agonized Edward could certainly let his anguish and his terror show.
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Re: Explorations (**BD2 Movie Spoilers!**)

Postby Tornado » Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:11 am

smitten_by_twilight wrote:Wow, Tornado, nice point. Turnabout is fair play.


I'm not sure it's fair play. It's actually quite cruel. Certainly, the way both go about doing what they do causes more pain than anything, mainly because they are not honest about their true motivations.


smitten_by_twilight wrote:Very nice, corona. At the end of Eclipse Bella avoids giving Edward the true reason she is suddenly doing things to make everyone else happy - because everything in her life is about him. She knows that this would be an unacceptable answer to him. She has similar simple reasons for wanting Renesmee, it's not like she has some huge complex philosophy about it. It is Edward's child, and the thought of hurting Edward's child is almost as unbearable as - or more than - the thought of hurting Edward. She doesn't particularly want a child at all - but she pictures a tiny Edward in her arms, and that's the end of the story. To Edward that would be a complete abomination.


Absolutely.

smitten_by_twilight wrote:Y'all are geniuses here (or really really obsessed, or both ;) ).


I think it's the latter!

smitten_by_twilight wrote:And not to forget - Jazz Girl, well thought out and passionate post overall, and pretty much exactly my feelings. On reflection I wonder if Rob perhaps played that scene more like a human (angry) and less like a vampire (hurt), just because I don't know if Edward would even be comfortable losing control enough to yell at Bella. But it's a very fine line, and an agonized Edward could certainly let his anguish and his terror show.


Actually, Edward does yell at Bella in the books. He yells at her at the end of New Moon when everyone votes yes to her becoming a vampire. Bella also makes it clear that she is afraid that he'll yet at her when she comes back from her impulse visit to Jake. I think there's enough evidence in the books to suggest that he's yelled at Bella on more than one occasion (we know he has a temper), so it's not unreasonable to assume that he would have yelled at Bella when she told him her decision, even though he quickly realised he couldn't do that when it made her condition worse during the pregnancy.
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