Explorations (**BD2 Movie Spoilers!**)

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Re: Explorations (**BD2 Movie Spoilers!**)

Postby corona » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:10 pm

Suzan, I loved reading your comments! I'm going to have to watch that scene again.

No, I don't think book Edward would have done that, although he might have had those thoughts.

As to your question about communication, let me pick out your key comment:

Suzan wrote:In the book, I always got the impression that he did realize why Bella did what she did and he was trying to understand it. He didn’t agree with her, but at least he saw her POV.


I think that is subject to one's own opinion. I would agree that it is baffling why Edward might appear to suddenly be such a lunkhead. I'm absolutely basing that off of the "puppies" talk he had with Jacob. My impression was always that Edward was completely baffled by Bella's insistence on carrying the pregnancy to term. My take was that Edward was putting a lot down to "human female stuff", not knowing what else could be the reason. She is a biological human, pregnant, hormones coursing through her body, irrational, motherly instincts taking over. OK, not very complimentary to Edward, but then sometimes women are baffling to men. I don't know whether he even thought about the fact that HE being the father had anything to do with it, or if his own self-revulsion just walled that off. That's the lunkhead part, that he didn't seem to even consider that as a possibility or had considered it but ruled it out completely.

Let me also say, I think if Bella actually explicitly gave her reasons to Edward he would have believed her. His blind spot always seems to come back to how much Bella loves him, and sometimes he just completely drops that from his equations until she reminds him. That's a recurring theme all the way to the final paragraphs of the final chapter.

That part is completely subject to interpretation. You would have a good point that Edward simply couldn't be that blind. I tend to go with the extreme nature of that scene as underscoring Edward's cluelessness, which I believe is admittedly somewhat contrived in order to send an intentional signal that a) Jacob was always Edward's choice as he represented Bella keeping her humanity, and b) Edward hates his own nature and still believes changing Bella is wrong. I don't think there's any question that if Bella accepts Jacob's proposition that the whole vamp thing is off for her.

I think this is heavily influenced by one's own personal view of Edward's character. I may be wrong, but I simply can't see Edward as knowing, at the moment of his initial conversation with Jacob, Bella's true reasons for keeping this child. He may have glommed onto that afterwards, and certainly by the time he hears Renesmee's voice or shortly afterwards. I'm sure he and Bella have some discussion on that after the dog leaves.

I just hate to think that Edward is fully informed and still has that talk with Jacob. That isn't a regression back to his EC persona, it is a regression all the way back to NM and his willingness to betray Bella for "her own good". I can't imagine Edward would ask Jacob to proposition Bella unless he really doesn't know why Bella will carry to term. But then, he was the "burning man". There's fuel for both sides.

I know this comes back to some of my prior comments on masculinity and that "puppies" conversation. I personally find that scene tolerable only because of Edward's confusion and his belief that there is a slim possibility that it might work. Hence, B&E never had an honest discussion.

My opinion only, and I know it's heavily influenced by my own image and opinion of Edward.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Explorations (**BD2 Movie Spoilers!**)

Postby Violet Sunlight » Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:11 pm

Hello everyone, :wave:

Jazz Girl – I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I think if Bella would have chosen another beloved partner/husband and if he would have wanted Bella to do what Edward wanted her to do, I think Bella would have gave the same answer she gave in BD. That child would have been the representation of the love in that partnership/marriage as well and she would also not give that child up either for another child. All of her maternal instincts would have surfaced when she would have found out she was pregnant and her answer would still be no, though she had never wanted children before.

Suzan wrote: But what really gets me is the fact he gets this angry with her; refusing to even let her speak, refusing to listen to her and refusing to at least try to understand her point of view. In the book, I always got the impression that he did realize why Bella did what she did and he was trying to understand it. He didn’t agree with her, but at least he saw her POV. In the movie it feels like he’s blatantly blocking her out. Refusing to even let her try to explain.

I did understand Edward's view on the subject. I think Edward knew whatever explanation Bella could or did give him included her dying and he didn't want to hear that. He was desperately trying to convince her to cancel her plans and see reason but Bella wasn't having it. She was going to proceed regardless of anyone's advice to the contrary. Edward was trying to save Bella from Bella, like Jacob was asked to try. In BD1 Bella had accepted that it looked like she was going to die and she took it upon herself to make Edward a widower and a father. However, in BD the book, Bella thought she could stay strong enough to be changed and have an even happier ever after than she first planned. I think the circumstances were a bit different.

Suzan wrote:But in that one scene in BD1 all he can say and think of is “his choice”. He doesn’t choose to loose her and he doesn’t care whatsoever about Bella’s choice. Isn’t that pretty selfish?

Yes, I think he is being selfish, but in a good way. Kind of, sort of. The yelling did take me by surprise too, but I understood it. At this point, Edward has zero tolerance for anything that involves Bella's death, including her choice. Especially after Carlisle has just confirmed that Bella will not make it. But, not only does Bella want and forces Edward to accept her choice she also has a request. She then suggests that he take care of their child when she would be gone. He somehow painfully and politely says (in not so many words) NO and then Bella tries to make a case for their child and says “it's not his fault” he then looks away and she says “ you have to accept what is” and that's when Edward loses it and reminds her “because you've given me no choice . . . . .”. Like I said in my earlier post, Edward's paternal instincts haven't kicked in yet and as we know Edward is not exagerating when he says he can't live without her. Bella's death is Edward's death. I guess in BD1 Bella was hoping vampire paternal feelings would out weigh vampire mate feelings.

Suzan wrote:But could someone explain to me how you all got to the conclusion that Bella doesn’t communicate with Edward in BD? Because I didn’t get this impression.

For me, it's not that they don't communicate in the book, it's just that the relationship is out of harmony or something. Bella's never needed to physically shield herself from Edward before. They've had impasses before but the relationship remained harmonious but now their affections are covered with stress and worry. The relationship has become more clinical. Thankfully though, once Edward hears Renesmee's thoughts in Bella's womb, (which I think was the same day she is born), his paternal instincts kick in and harmony is restored.
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Re: Explorations (**BD2 Movie Spoilers!**)

Postby Suzan » Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:02 pm

Okay, maybe I should explain some of my statements a bit more. I was in a hurry earlier and maybe didn't make some things clear. And I have my books with me now. Also, I should say that I don't blame Edward one bit. I do understand where he is coming from. It just doesn't fit with the Edward in my mind while reading the book that he gets that angry and walks out on her. But like corona said, everyone’s opinion of Edward is different. It’s all subjective. Especially this part of the book that we can only speculate on.

I’m going to be commenting on a lot of what you all have said without using quotes, because it all runs together in my head. Hope you won’t mind and you can make sense of my brainwaves.

See, I didn't say Edward understood and accepted Bella's decision. I simply got the impression that he was aware of her opinion. And if he saw that, even if he didn’t understand it, could he honestly force her to give it up? Take her choices away from her? In the movie, particularly in this scene, it seems like he is prepared to do it. Rip her open, right there and then. Not even caring what she wants.

Now let me tell you how I read the book and you’ll see why this is different from my experience of the movie (hopefully).: When they first find out about the pregnancy on Isle Esme, Edward calls the baby a “thing” and is determined to get it out of her. He’s disgusted by the abomination and Bella sees that in him. She knows he won’t listen to her if she told him she wanted to keep the baby. That’s why she hides her plan to ask Rosalie for help. If she would have told him anything about that, he would have tipped the Cullens off. Have Carlisle keep Rosalie away from the airport, anything. He would have taken the thing out. At this point, I do believe he would have done it. He’s not thinking rationally and he also doesn’t know (see how I say “know”, not “understand”, ;) ) the full scope of Bella’s feelings toward the baby. He still thinks Bella is scared of the thing hurting her, while in fact she’s just scared of loosing it. During the trip back to Forks, yes, Bella is shutting him out. She’s not communicating. But she has good reason to. And running to Rosalie gives her the temporary escape from a forced abortion. Rosalie is like the witnesses against the Volturi; she’s there to make Edward hesitate. Make him calm down. Make him have a reasonable discussion. In the two weeks we skip until Jacob comes to the Cullen house, they must have had some form of discussion or conversation. That’s what Rosalie provided with her first interference.

You honestly believe that during those two weeks, they just sat there? Arms crossed, staring angrily at each other, no words spoken? I don’t believe that. And there is evidence in the books supporting this theory even though we don’t have an actual account of the events. For example: “She won’t listen to me, because she thinks I’m underestimating her. She thinks she’s strong enough for this…” This suggests that they talked about it. At least he’s talked to her, tried to reason with her. And the fact that he knows what she’s thinking, says that she talked back. (I don’t need to remind you that he can’t read her mind... Yet, I just did… ;) ) Also: “I’m not going to die,” she said through her teeth, and I could tell she was repeating things she’d said before. “I will keep my heart beating. I’m strong enough for that.” Plus the whole theory about Esmee, she must have told Carlisle about that plan at the very least. And if she’s still dead-set on having Edward be the one to change her, she must have told him the plan as well. And think about this; Wouldn’t Bella want to have Edward on her side? Wouldn’t she try to persuade him to see her reasoning? Wouldn’t she rather see him happy and sharing her love for her little nudger?

In the end, I believe a similar conversation to the one Bella has with Jacob must have taken place between her and Edward, whether Rosalie or any of the other Cullens were present or not. And in that conversation I could see Edward yelling at her, yes. He doesn’t become “the burning man” from just standing on the sidelines with his arms crossed over his chest. “I’ve been thinking of nothing but ways to save her since I realized what she was planning to do. What she would die to do …” And as Bella says: “He really would do anything, wouldn’t he?” Edward tried everything else, but Bella won’t change her mind. That only leads me to think he had to have tried to persuade her in every possible way he could come up with. Only when he realizes she can’t be persuaded to change her mind, does he become “the burning man”; he now believes there is absolutely no way out of the situation. Bella is going to die and he can’t change her mind nor can he force her to give up what she wants.

Do you believe he would have pounced on her if Rosalie would have slipped up? Lost her focus on Bella just a second? Edward would have scooped her up from the couch and ran off with her? He’s faster than the others so he could have made it away from them… In the movie that is “his choice” if he got the chance.

To continue my experience of the book from the moment Jacob’s POV starts: Edward has tried everything to change Bella’s mind. That’s why he finally resorts to suggesting the whole puppies idea. He hides this plan from Bella and the others, leaving the option open that Bella never had to explain that she wanted this baby. So “burning man”-Edward wasn’t aware of that. After the conversation with Jacob, Edward and Bella must have spoken about it and Edward may have understood her POV a bit more. However, it doesn’t change how he feels about the pregnancy. He still doesn’t believe the thing could be good. Bella doesn’t believe Edward is evil, so she doesn’t believe the baby is evil. But Edward thinks Bella is wrong about him and therefore about the baby. At that point it changes from a discussion about simply her health and whether she will survive, into a question of the baby being evil or not. That’s when Edward starts referring to the thing - it - as a fetus. Maybe he’s even starting to understand Bella’s feelings toward the baby…

And all the above is for me the reason I hate movieWard in that scene. MovieWard is ready to rip her open and get it out, while fully aware of her opinion. BookWard, in my mind, wasn’t going to do that after the initial shock. It’s like Carlisle says: “I can’t ignore her will. It wouldn’t be right to make such a choice for her, to force her.” And I would have expected Edward to (eventually) realize that as well. He can only try to reason with her, not force her. Maybe it’s because I am a woman. Nobody can force me to do things to my body I don’t want to. If I don’t want to have an abortion, I won’t. If I do, I will. Granted I don’t have a lot of experience with serious relationships like Bella and Edward’s nor do I have experience with pregnancy, especially not life-threatening vampire-pregnancy. But I can’t let anyone else make decisions about my body, no matter who you are. Edward may have come from a different time, but if he seriously would force her into an abortion even knowing her opinion on it, knowing it’s about this baby and Bella absolutely does not want to loose it… Than he is not the man I thought he was. I’d be seriously disappointed. It should be his choice not to force her.

On Rosalie: Yes, she’s always there. But that doesn’t mean there wasn’t a connection between Edward and Bella still. Even though Rosalie is always hovering close by, there is a physical connection: His head slumped against Bella’s knees. She put one of her hands against his cheek. Like she was comforting him. He also strokes her face, holds her hand, has her burritoed feet in his lap etc. Even Jacob touches her repeatedly. Edward and Bella still talk to each other. Granted they’re not deep philosophical exchanges and Edward is constantly keeping up his mask. But Edward is always there, even if Rose is standing between them. And Rosalie’s actions are not about Bella shutting Edward out. Rosalie has her own reasons of course and Bella is just happy with her assurance that she has an ally in protecting her nudger. But Bella, in my mind, still communicates with Edward and everyone else. At least after the airport incident.

Finally, Edward may have been angry, frustrated, hurting, helpless etc. But to get absolutely furious and walking out on her? Leave her in all the physical and mental pain. No. Never. I don’t believe that. And if he did go that far, he would have turned around once he realized the emotional damage he had inflicted and tried to comfort her. At least apologize for yelling. He’s always saying: “I have to try to hide this in front of her, because stress makes her more ill. She can’t keep anything down as it is. I have to be composed; I can’t make it harder.” or ”But it’s hard to leave her, even for a few minutes. … I can’t be away from her now.” This is the absolute opposite from walking out on her after an argument.

Anyways, I think I got carried away a little there… Summary: From reading the book, I thought Bella and Edward both knew each other’s arguments. They’d reached an impasse at the time Jacob comes into the picture. That’s why they don’t seem to communicate anymore after that. They’ve said all they needed to say, but neither of them is really able to change the situation, knowing what they know about themselves and each other.

One more thing:
Violet Sunlight wrote:In BD1 Bella had accepted that it looked like she was going to die and she took it upon herself to make Edward a widower and a father. However, in BD the book, Bella thought she could stay strong enough to be changed and have an even happier ever after than she first planned. I think the circumstances were a bit different.

That's actually a good point. BookBella believes she's going to survive. MovieBella in that instant is talking about how the baby is going to need it's father when she's gone. Quite a significant difference. Still doesn't rationalize the walking out in my mind though. But it does make the "I don't choose that"-comment more clear. Bella wants him to live on without her and take care of the baby, as you said. What if the "choosing" was refering to whether or not he'd kill himself after Bella dies. Hmmm...
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Re: Explorations (**BD2 Movie Spoilers!**)

Postby Tornado » Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:41 am

Suzan wrote:Edward is always saying how he doesn’t want to be selfish. At least not when it’s about Bella. He leaves in NM, because he thinks continuing their relationship just because he loves her is selfish. He can’t give her a normal human life and she – as a human – cannot possibly love him as much as he loves her, so by staying he will only ruin her chances of a normal life and happiness and actual love. Plus it will put her in constant danger. Just because he happened to fall in love with her. It’s the same thing with his reasoning behind not wanting to change her. To quote Eclipse (movie, because I don’t have my book right now and youtube is pretty convenient): “You believe I have a soul and I don’t. But to risk yours just for the sake of never having to loose you… That’s the most selfish thing I’ll ever do.” It even came back in BD2 when he has the conversation with Carlisle at the campfire. All these vampires are risking their lives just because he fell in love with a human. But in that one scene in BD1 all he can say and think of is “his choice”. He doesn’t choose to loose her and he doesn’t care whatsoever about Bella’s choice. Isn’t that pretty selfish?


I don't know if I would equate that with him being selfish at that point. Who gains anything if Bella dies? Even the baby might not survive, depending on how far along the pregnancy is. Perhaps she will, but, if Bella dies, she loses her life, and Edward loses her, as does Jacob, the rest of the Cullens, and Bella's parents (although you could argue that that are expected to lose her at this point, anyway, if she becomes a vampire). A lot of people lose if she dies, and the only gain there will be is if the baby survives. Then Rosalie will be happy (and probably Jacob, as he will still imprint). However, everyone else will still have at least equal pain in Bella's loss as in joy with Renesmee, and I do doubt that Edward could even live on for Renesemee's sake if Bella is gone.

Suzan wrote:But even if I could somehow ignore all the above, Edward walking out on Bella and practically slamming the door in her face is just… no, no, no, NO! Bella is just laying there. The fact alone that she’s in physical pain – she just had her rib broken for one - should be enough for him to not ever leave her side no matter how stubborn he thinks she is.


It's interesting, because I've seen stills of this scene that suggest that more was filmed that we didn't see. There is a shot from around this scene in the film (from when Bella is lying on the gurney) and Rosalie is in it. This is the still I'm referring to. While I doubt she's in the room for this conversation, it's quite likely that she is just outside. After all, she is guarding Bella from Carlisle and Edward. She won't be too far away. In fact, she may have told Edward not to touch her, which might be another reason why he is so frustrated and why he leaves. He knows he's not allowed to touch her anyway. Rosalie is probably waiting impatiently outside, ready to take her where she needs to go.

Jazz Girl wrote:My impression from what we hear from Edward was that there might have been two or three sentences exchanged. And none of those were between Edward & Bella. None of them allowed him to actually speak to her, or her to speak to him for that matter. Because Rosalie never left her side. She was there usurping Edward's position as his wife's caregiver. Even when Bella is vomiting and Edward is prone at her feet, tormented by her pain, Rose is there with a warning hand between them. When Bella cries out and has to be carried upstairs, it is Rose who carries her, not Edward, having the unmitigated gall to snap at Edward for even thinking to lay a hand on his wife.


Yes, Edward wasn't allowed to be too close to her, especially when Jacob first arrived. Once she had started drinking the blood and she looked a little better they seemed to loosen up on that a bit, but initially, Rosalie was the one who touched her and moved her, not Edward.

Suzan wrote:In the two weeks we skip until Jacob comes to the Cullen house, they must have had some form of discussion or conversation. That’s what Rosalie provided with her first interference. You honestly believe that during those two weeks, they just sat there? Arms crossed, staring angrily at each other, no words spoken? I don’t believe that. And there is evidence in the books supporting this theory even though we don’t have an actual account of the events. For example: “She won’t listen to me, because she thinks I’m underestimating her. She thinks she’s strong enough for this…” This suggests that they talked about it. At least he’s talked to her, tried to reason with her. And the fact that he knows what she’s thinking, says that she talked back.


I don't know if I agree with that. While there's certainly evidence that they exchanged words, there is no evidence that it was any more than pleading and cajoling on Edward's side and refusing on Bella's. There's no evidence anywhere that she ever told him the reason for refusing, i.e. that it was his child. The closest she comes is in telling Jake that she wouldn't accept a stranger's baby in its place and that she loves the baby and couldn't get rid of it any more than she could shoot Jacob (note: she doesn't mention Edward in relation to the baby even at this point) so there's no indication that she's told him it's because it's his, so much as she's just said that she thinks she's strong enough and that she loves it.

Now, Edward has had plenty of reason to doubt her judgement in what she loves. That was the reason he left in New Moon. In spite of what he learned then, and in Eclipse, this definitely would have brought back his fear and then some.

Suzan wrote: (I don’t need to remind you that he can’t read her mind... Yet, I just did… ;) ) Also: “I’m not going to die,” she said through her teeth, and I could tell she was repeating things she’d said before. “I will keep my heart beating. I’m strong enough for that.” Plus the whole theory about Esmee, she must have told Carlisle about that plan at the very least. And if she’s still dead-set on having Edward be the one to change her, she must have told him the plan as well. And think about this; Wouldn’t Bella want to have Edward on her side? Wouldn’t she try to persuade him to see her reasoning? Wouldn’t she rather see him happy and sharing her love for her little nudger?


Would she really? To be honest, none of the three leads have a great track record at explaining their motivations and feelings in open minded conversation with others. That's why so many bad things result. Apart from which, it's made clear that if her heart fails, which is likely considering how hard it's working just to keep her alive at that point, there will be no time for the venom to work. I can see them trading these words back and forth, but they are both stubborn enough not to be swayed, and I don't think there would have been any real and proper open minded discussion about it, as both are determined to stick to their guns (as we see in the books) until Edward hears Renesmee's mind.

Suzan wrote:In the end, I believe a similar conversation to the one Bella has with Jacob must have taken place between her and Edward, whether Rosalie or any of the other Cullens were present or not.


Yes, and she's not listening much in that conversation. It doesn't change a thing. Jake tells her pretty bluntly she's going to die and she refuses to believe it, thinking she can hold on long enough to be changed.

Suzan wrote: Do you believe he would have pounced on her if Rosalie would have slipped up? Lost her focus on Bella just a second? Edward would have scooped her up from the couch and ran off with her? He’s faster than the others so he could have made it away from them… In the movie that is “his choice” if he got the chance.


Where's he going to go? Is he going to drug her and perform the abortion himself? While he does have medical training, it's clear from what he says to Jake that he is relying on Carlisle to perform the abortion, and Carlisle's refusal to help because Esme's against it has caused a problem for him. "Carlisle won't help me with Esme against it," he says. So, in spite of his eagerness for it (and his eagerness is clear at this point) he will not perform the abortion himself, which suggests he is reluctant to do it for a reason other than that he understands Bella's situation. And he can hardly take Bella to a different doctor.

Suzan wrote:To continue my experience of the book from the moment Jacob’s POV starts: Edward has tried everything to change Bella’s mind.


I agree, and she won't listen. I think that would make him distraught enough to yell at her.

Suzan wrote:That’s when Edward starts referring to the thing - it - as a fetus. Maybe he’s even starting to understand Bella’s feelings toward the baby…


I don't think using the term fetus indicates he's starting to understand Bella's feelings. As Jake comments when he first starts using that term, "I could tell Edward had difficulty using a term as mild as fetus." He's probably just trying not to be overly antagonistic about the situation because it will make Bella sicker, rather than understanding anything.

Suzan wrote:And all the above is for me the reason I hate movieWard in that scene. MovieWard is ready to rip her open and get it out, while fully aware of her opinion.


I disagree. I think Bookward would happily do the same until he hears Renesmee. He never seems happy with the idea of keeping the baby until that point, even when they discover that blood helps Bella. That's when Jake comments about him having trouble even calling it a fetus. And there is no clear indication at any of these points that Edward and Bella have had any more significant conversation about the situation. I can't imagine Edward bearing his soul when Rosalie is around, as she clearly is, so I think it's possible that a conversation like the one in the movie took place, although I think it would have been before Jake got there.
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Re: Explorations (**BD2 Movie Spoilers!**)

Postby Jazz Girl » Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:33 am

Tornado~ Absolutely perfect points, all. I don't believe there was ever the possibility of them having the conversation they needed to have because of Bella's hide-behind-Rose strategy. I like to believe that they might have been able to have those conversations, eventually at least come to some kind of mutual understanding had Rose not been complicating everything. But, that never happened because Rose's selfishness kept her right in the middle. Her blind drive to do nothing but see that the baby is delivered safely just will not allow her to step aside to allow for the conversation that needs to happen to occur. I can see Edward trying to start the conversation, but Rose cutting it off before he's even three words in because she sees it stressing Bella out and not allowing even the idea to come to fruition.

I do have a few specific thoughts I want to put out there...


Violet Sunlight wrote:Jazz Girl – I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I think if Bella would have chosen another beloved partner/husband and if he would have wanted Bella to do what Edward wanted her to do, I think Bella would have gave the same answer she gave in BD. That child would have been the representation of the love in that partnership/marriage as well and she would also not give that child up either for another child. All of her maternal instincts would have surfaced when she would have found out she was pregnant and her answer would still be no, though she had never wanted children before.


Possibly. We can't say yes or no because that is not a situation we will ever have to consider. Bella never waivered in her love and dedication to Edward and, therefore, we can only go by her direct thoughts relayed through her words. With Edward, it was never a trial to give up having children because she didn't want them. But, it was the ironclad fact that this was Edward's child that drove her to her desperation to bring the baby into the world, period.


Suzan wrote:Do you believe he would have pounced on her if Rosalie would have slipped up? Lost her focus on Bella just a second? Edward would have scooped her up from the couch and ran off with her? He’s faster than the others so he could have made it away from them… In the movie that is “his choice” if he got the chance....

And all the above is for me the reason I hate movieWard in that scene. MovieWard is ready to rip her open and get it out, while fully aware of her opinion. BookWard, in my mind, wasn’t going to do that after the initial shock. It’s like Carlisle says: “I can’t ignore her will. It wouldn’t be right to make such a choice for her, to force her.” And I would have expected Edward to (eventually) realize that as well. He can only try to reason with her, not force her. Maybe it’s because I am a woman. Nobody can force me to do things to my body I don’t want to. If I don’t want to have an abortion, I won’t. If I do, I will. Granted I don’t have a lot of experience with serious relationships like Bella and Edward’s nor do I have experience with pregnancy, especially not life-threatening vampire-pregnancy. But I can’t let anyone else make decisions about my body, no matter who you are. Edward may have come from a different time, but if he seriously would force her into an abortion even knowing her opinion on it, knowing it’s about this baby and Bella absolutely does not want to loose it… Than he is not the man I thought he was. I’d be seriously disappointed. It should be his choice not to force her.

Oh, believe me, I am right there with you in the firm belief that no one has the right to force anyone's hand, particularly when it comes to their body. And I do hate that there was a time when Edward was ready and willing to try and force Bella to do what she was so deadset against. But, I also don't believe that that time lasted long. His initial reaction of shock and terror forced him into his feral instinct to destroy anything that threatened the life of his mate. He was ready to fight god and man alike and even Bella to keep her safe. But, I don't think that lasted too long at all. Yes, Edward's overreactions where Bella is concerned exist on an epic scale. But, he can also be returned to his logical mind... or more logical mind fairly easily. As Tornado pointed out, he was unwilling to do anything without Carlisle's help and he knew that Carlisle would not act, period. If he'd been truly determined, he wouldn't have cared if Carlisle was willing to act or if Esme was opposed or about any other factor. He was allowing all of those other factors to return him to his logical understanding that he had no right to force Bella to do anything. But, he was using those complications to rationalize his own heart in turning away from what he always saw as his primary motivation of protecting Bella first and foremost. He had to give himself what he saw as a justifiable reason to allow what he saw as the danger to Bella to continue existing otherwise he would have felt like even more of a failure, more of a monster, more responsible for what he saw as her imminent death than he already did.

As for MovieWard, no I don't think he was ready to pounce on her and force the abortion. In his pleading with Carlisle to tell Bella the entire truth, I think you see a very interesting dynamic laid out. Edward begs Carlisle to explain to Bella the now medical certainty that she will die before she can give birth, but he refuses until Bella says she wants to hear it. That is key. What you see there is the ENTIRE FAMILY supporting Bella's contention, even going so far as to engage in the historically Edwardian practice of keeping the truth from her danger, in this case to bolster and keep intact her faith that she CAN do it. It is only when Bella says that she wants to know that Carlisle explains the reality of her dire medical condition. Edward is essentially begging Carlisle to make Bella see reason. He's not asking Carlisle to help him force a medical procedure on her. He knows and has accepted that only Bella can make that choice. But, he's going to enlist every fact and factor that he can to force her to see reason. I think what he wants to see and hear most at that time is for Bella to look at him and say, "you're right, I'm killing myself and you along with me. I understand that this is not going to happen, let's end this." I think he also knows that that is as likely as the sun rising in the west. So, when his last hope fails, he cannot take it anymore and all of the hurt and loss and fear and terror he's felt from the moment he heard her tell Carlisle she thinks she's pregnant comes spilling out in a very justified and very necessary explosion.

Suzan wrote:Finally, Edward may have been angry, frustrated, hurting, helpless etc. But to get absolutely furious and walking out on her? Leave her in all the physical and mental pain. No. Never. I don’t believe that. And if he did go that far, he would have turned around once he realized the emotional damage he had inflicted and tried to comfort her. At least apologize for yelling. He’s always saying: “I have to try to hide this in front of her, because stress makes her more ill. She can’t keep anything down as it is. I have to be composed; I can’t make it harder.” or ”But it’s hard to leave her, even for a few minutes. … I can’t be away from her now.” This is the absolute opposite from walking out on her after an argument.


[color=#4040FF]As for him walking out, I see it as, honestly, classic Edward. What has he done in the past to protect her from himself? If he stays and continues to let his hurt spill out, he will hurt her worse. He knows she isn't doing this to intentionally hurt him, but he also can't help but feel abandoned and gutted. So, his choices are simple. Stay and keep hurting her, or leave and protect her until he can make himself safe again, until he can get his emotions back under control. For him, it's a simple choice. He knows he can't leave her. But, he can step away from her until he gets back under control and reigns in his emotions and then he goes back and apologizes. Classic Edward, on a much less devastating scale.
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Re: Explorations (**BD2 Movie Spoilers!**)

Postby Tornado » Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:02 pm

Jazz Girl wrote:Edward is essentially begging Carlisle to make Bella see reason. He's not asking Carlisle to help him force a medical procedure on her. He knows and has accepted that only Bella can make that choice. But, he's going to enlist every fact and factor that he can to force her to see reason. I think what he wants to see and hear most at that time is for Bella to look at him and say, "you're right, I'm killing myself and you along with me. I understand that this is not going to happen, let's end this." I think he also knows that that is as likely as the sun rising in the west. So, when his last hope fails, he cannot take it anymore and all of the hurt and loss and fear and terror he's felt from the moment he heard her tell Carlisle she thinks she's pregnant comes spilling out in a very justified and very necessary explosion.

As for him walking out, I see it as, honestly, classic Edward. What has he done in the past to protect her from himself? If he stays and continues to let his hurt spill out, he will hurt her worse. He knows she isn't doing this to intentionally hurt him, but he also can't help but feel abandoned and gutted. So, his choices are simple. Stay and keep hurting her, or leave and protect her until he can make himself safe again, until he can get his emotions back under control. For him, it's a simple choice. He knows he can't leave her. But, he can step away from her until he gets back under control and reigns in his emotions and then he goes back and apologizes. Classic Edward, on a much less devastating scale.


Yes, that's all so true. *sniff* I'm going to cry now. :cry:
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Re: Explorations (**BD2 Movie Spoilers!**)

Postby Violet Sunlight » Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:23 pm

Hello everyone, :wave:

Jazz Girl wrote: As for MovieWard, no I don't think he was ready to pounce on her and force the abortion. In his pleading with Carlisle to tell Bella the entire truth, I think you see a very interesting dynamic laid out. Edward begs Carlisle to explain to Bella the now medical certainty that she will die before she can give birth, but he refuses until Bella says she wants to hear it. That is key. What you see there is the ENTIRE FAMILY supporting Bella's contention, even going so far as to engage in the historically Edwardian practice of keeping the truth from her danger, in this case to bolster and keep intact her faith that she CAN do it. It is only when Bella says that she wants to know that Carlisle explains the reality of her dire medical condition. Edward is essentially begging Carlisle to make Bella see reason. He's not asking Carlisle to help him force a medical procedure on her. He knows and has accepted that only Bella can make that choice. But, he's going to enlist every fact and factor that he can to force her to see reason. I think what he wants to see and hear most at that time is for Bella to look at him and say, "you're right, I'm killing myself and you along with me. I understand that this is not going to happen, let's end this." I think he also knows that that is as likely as the sun rising in the west. So, when his last hope fails, he cannot take it anymore and all of the hurt and loss and fear and terror he's felt from the moment he heard her tell Carlisle she thinks she's pregnant comes spilling out in a very justified and very necessary explosion.

As for him walking out, I see it as, honestly, classic Edward. What has he done in the past to protect her from himself? If he stays and continues to let his hurt spill out, he will hurt her worse. He knows she isn't doing this to intentionally hurt him, but he also can't help but feel abandoned and gutted. So, his choices are simple. Stay and keep hurting her, or leave and protect her until he can make himself safe again, until he can get his emotions back under control. For him, it's a simple choice. He knows he can't leave her. But, he can step away from her until he gets back under control and reigns in his emotions and then he goes back and apologizes. Classic Edward, on a much less devastating scale.

Sooooo AGREE, and yes it's soooo "classic Edward" as you say.

Suzan wrote: Rosalie is like the witnesses against the Volturi; she’s there to make Edward hesitate. Make him calm down. Make him have a reasonable discussion. In the two weeks we skip until Jacob comes to the Cullen house, they must have had some form of discussion or conversation. That’s what Rosalie provided with her first interference.

Although, Rosalie's efforts did slow Edward down and that was a great bonus, it's not the reason why Bella enlisted Rosalie's help. I think Bella's only intention for asking Rosalie to help was to protect the child. Bella could not protect the child by herself as a human and she thought she was going to be a wild newborn so she needed someone strong enough to be the child's foster-mother until Bella would be passed her newborn stage.

Suzan wrote: You honestly believe that during those two weeks, they just sat there? Arms crossed, staring angrily at each other, no words spoken? I don’t believe that.

I agree. I think the reason the Cullens seemed uncommunicative in the BD1 scene, when Jacob goes to the Cullen house and first sees pregnant Bella, was because they wanted to show how the family was divided on the issue. However, I agree with you, I don't think they were uncommunicative the whole time Edward and Bella had been back from Isle Esme, in the book or movie.

Suzan wrote: One more thing:
Violet Sunlight wrote:In BD1 Bella had accepted that it looked like she was going to die and she took it upon herself to make Edward a widower and a father. However, in BD the book, Bella thought she could stay strong enough to be changed and have an even happier ever after than she first planned. I think the circumstances were a bit different.

That's actually a good point. BookBella believes she's going to survive. MovieBella in that instant is talking about how the baby is going to need it's father when she's gone. Quite a significant difference. Still doesn't rationalize the walking out in my mind though. But it does make the "I don't choose that"-comment more clear. Bella wants him to live on without her and take care of the baby, as you said. What if the "choosing" was refering to whether or not he'd kill himself after Bella dies. Hmmm...

Thank you. Since we agree on movie-Edward's yelling, these are just my thoughts on movie-Edward's walking away and slamming the door. In New Moon, in the vote chapter, Edward actually is more dramatic than in the BD1 scene, where movie-Edward yells at Bella, and mind you, the book scene is less stressful than the BD1 scene. At least in the book, Edward is arguing with a healthy Bella. [Underlines are mine] Edward growls at Carlisle and also stalks away from Carlisle and the rest of the family after Carlisle voted yes on healthy Bella becoming a vampire. Also, on Stephenie Meyer's website in the New Moon FAQ, it states that the ear splitting crash Bella heard, but didn't see, coming from the living room, was Edward ripping in half a 60” plasma TV and let's not forget when he comes back to the dining table, after Bella has said to Alice, “Where do you want to do this?”, he comes charging in and roaring “No! No! NO!” Bella says, Edward's expression was twisted in rage. Then he starts shouting, “Have you utterly lost your mind?” then Bella, “cringed away, my hands over my ears”. Then a few sentences later, Alice says, “I don't have any idea how not to kill you”. Bella encourages her and says, “You can do it, I trust you”. Edward then snarls in fury. Then a few sentences later, Edward says, “In the interest of remaining inconspicuous”, Edward said, still talking through his gritted teeth, but looking at Carlisle . . . .”

I agree with Jazz Girl when movie-Edward yells, storms out and slams the door, it's “classic Edward”. In my opinion, if book-Edward would have been in that BD1 scene instead of movie-Edward and Carlisle says everything he says and then Bella says everything she says, he would have ripped the door right off it's hinges but not before trashing the X-Ray machine.

Suzan wrote: Do you believe he would have pounced on her if Rosalie would have slipped up? Lost her focus on Bella just a second? Edward would have scooped her up from the couch and ran off with her? He’s faster than the others so he could have made it away from them… In the movie that is “his choice” if he got the chance.

What a great question. Since Rosalie had stopped Edward, I really never gave it too much thought as to how book-Edward, very well, could, and would have executed his plan if Rosalie was out of the way. Hmmm, let me see . . . . . Well, IF Rosalie was out of the way and since in the book, Carlisle says he would not have performed an abortion without Bella's consent, I think Edward would have had to use every trick he knew to convince, beg and/or coerce Carlisle to do it.

Maybe he could have threatened to do the abortion himself and warned Carlisle and said something like, “Are you just going to take the chance that I could do it right, that I could control my thirst? Is she not your daughter, too? Either way Carlisle, I'm going through with it. With or without your help. I am NOT going to lose her. She may or may not forgive me, but I can live with whatever she decides. Carlisle please, this is the only guarantee of saving her life, her existence.”. Maybe something like this would have been enough for Carlisle to a) go against Emse's wishes, b) save Bella from sacrificing her human life like this and c) at the same time save Edward from imminent suicide which would also be d) saving the family from grieving both Bella & Edward's death. I don't really know if this would have worked, again I'm just taking a wild guess, but in my opinion, book-Edward definitely would have found a way.
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Re: Explorations (**BD2 Movie Spoilers!**)

Postby corona » Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:01 pm

Violet Sunlight wrote:In BD1 Bella had accepted that it looked like she was going to die and she took it upon herself to make Edward a widower and a father. However, in BD the book, Bella thought she could stay strong enough to be changed and have an even happier ever after than she first planned. I think the circumstances were a bit different.


That is a huge difference and it completely changes everything with what I understood from the book.

The bottom line is that if Bella dies, Edward dies. Bella knew that. She does her very best convincing herself that this issue isn't at stake, because she can't face it. Book Bella would do everything in her power to avoid bringing that issue out in the open. Rosalie provides a lot of support in making sure that it doesn't happen. Bella doesn't reprimand Rosalie because (my opinion only) Rosalie is needed to keep Bella wrapped in this illusion that the risks can be successfully managed. And Rosalie's assistance involves supporting Bella with "happy talk" about how everything is going to work out, while running interference against the one person who has the best chance of breaking through and making Bella face the reality of her condition and the consequences of her dying.

I mean, really, wasn't an entire book devoted to this very issue?

I'm sure Bella was very interested in Carlisle's medical opinion. They certainly discussed other matters involving the delivery. I can't see Bella directly asking Carlisle what her odds are, though. You can't ask the question without breaking the illusion that everything will be OK. If you ask about risks, then you acknowledge their existence. And Bella certainly wouldn't have turned to Edward, the "burning man" who is dying by pieces in front of her, and tell him to basically suck it up and somehow find some shred of moral character inside sufficient to endure the coming centuries of emotional agony and grief so that he can raise the child that is killing her.

The movie scene may address certain truths that were never spoken in the book, but there were critical reasons why they were never voiced. Just put that down to the need for a movie to speak in ALL CAPS.

Violet Sunlight wrote:In my opinion, if book-Edward would have been in that BD1 scene instead of movie-Edward and Carlisle says everything he says and then Bella says everything she says, he would have ripped the door right off it's hinges but not before trashing the X-Ray machine.


He just might have.

Jazz Girl wrote:I think what he wants to see and hear most at that time is for Bella to look at him and say, "you're right, I'm killing myself and you along with me. I understand that this is not going to happen, let's end this."


Exactamundo. But, that is Bella having to make a choice, believing that it is either Edward or the child. Book Bella understands she can never be put into a position where she makes that decision. I think if Book Bella was somehow miraculously forced to make that choice, she would actually choose Edward.

Technically though, I think we're a little beyond the point where we are talking about an abortion. By the time Bella arrives back home, yeah, but by the time her very life is on the line, what is it, a couple of days away from delivery? Renesmee wouldn't survive that? I think she's actually a little over 8 months in human-baby days.

Really, Carlisle should have just told Bella that the baby was due by the time Jacob showed up.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Explorations (**BD2 Movie Spoilers!**)

Postby Tornado » Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:39 pm

corona wrote:The movie scene may address certain truths that were never spoken in the book, but there were critical reasons why they were never voiced. Just put that down to the need for a movie to speak in ALL CAPS.


Good point.

corona wrote:But, that is Bella having to make a choice, believing that it is either Edward or the child. Book Bella understands she can never be put into a position where she makes that decision. I think if Book Bella was somehow miraculously forced to make that choice, she would actually choose Edward.


I think you're right, although I think she found it difficult to disassociate Renesmee from Edward. Renesmee was like a part of Edward's soul living inside her, so to kill one would be to kill the other. I think that's what her reasoning would have been. So she spent all her energy convincing herself that she was strong enough to save both.

corona wrote:Technically though, I think we're a little beyond the point where we are talking about an abortion. By the time Bella arrives back home, yeah, but by the time her very life is on the line, what is it, a couple of days away from delivery? Renesmee wouldn't survive that? I think she's actually a little over 8 months in human-baby days.

Really, Carlisle should have just told Bella that the baby was due by the time Jacob showed up.


That's true, but remember that they still can't tell exactly what's happening inside Bella, because they can't see. Rosalie has also had some medical training, and since she was more concerned with the baby than anything else, she would have been all too prepared to caution against Bella letting them act too soon in case it was too soon for the baby. I'm sure she would have (and perhaps did) argued against them at any suggestion of an early delivery, feeding Bella with the viewpoint that they were just trying to abort the baby without her realising it. Rosalie could not be convinced that it was safe to continue until Edward read Renesmee's mind. By that time, not only could he tell for certain that Renesmee was a reasonable size, his attitude towards her had also changed. Then Rosalie accepted the development, and her acceptance of the idea was just as important as Bella's, if not more so.
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Re: Explorations (**BD2 Movie Spoilers!**)

Postby Violet Sunlight » Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:46 pm

Hello everyone, :wave:

corona wrote: The bottom line is that if Bella dies, Edward dies. Bella knew that.

Yes, absolutely. Bella knew that, the family knew that, and the readers knew that. At the heart of the impasse (no pun intended) was that, Edward believed that this is exactly what was going to happen, although Bella thought she was going to be successfully transformed and their child would survive.

corona wrote: She does her very best convincing herself that this issue isn't at stake, because she can't face it. Book Bella would do everything in her power to avoid bringing that issue out in the open. Rosalie provides a lot of support in making sure that it doesn't happen. Bella doesn't reprimand Rosalie because (my opinion only) Rosalie is needed to keep Bella wrapped in this illusion that the risks can be successfully managed. And Rosalie's assistance involves supporting Bella with "happy talk" about how everything is going to work out, while running interference against the one person who has the best chance of breaking through and making Bella face the reality of her condition and the consequences of her dying.

While I do understand what you are saying, I think, just my opinion, the only thing Bella tried to keep from Edward was all the pain Renesmee was putting her in, albeit unsuccessfully. Every painful bone crack, every painful ink spotted bruise and let's not forget every painful trip to and from the sofa, was, IMO, the only aspect of her pregnancy she tried not to voice to Edward. I believe she was honest about her intentions and her plan to deliver their child.

Also, I thought and still think, it was logical for Bella to think she could have survived long enough to be changed. Esme was in worst shape than Bella was, well, before Bella stood up and the unforeseen complication of the placenta detaching and Renesmee suffocating happened. Esme was brought straight to the morgue in her battered condition and she was successfully changed. Bella was still coherent and the blood drinking had helped improve her condition a bit as well. She definitely knew she wasn't going to survive as a human, but since she had already planned to become a vampire, well now it just meant she had to use her vampire transformation card sooner than she expected. Even Carlisle thought she had a chance in her dire situation.

Book quote:
Jacob says, “Do you think there's any chance she'll make it? I mean as a vampire and all that. She told me about . . . about Esme.”

Carlisle says, “I'd say there's an even chance at this point”, he answered quietly. “I've seen vampire venom work miracles, but there are conditions that even venom cannot overcome. Her heart is working too hard now; if it should fail . . . there won't be anything for me to do.” Bella's heartbeat throbbed and faltered, giving an agonizing emphasis to his words.

corona wrote: And Bella certainly wouldn't have turned to Edward, the "burning man" who is dying by pieces in front of her, and tell him to basically suck it up and somehow find some shred of moral character inside sufficient to endure the coming centuries of emotional agony and grief so that he can raise the child that is killing her.

Totally agree. Although, I do still love that BD1 scene for the reasons I mentioned a few posts ago. It was just so :cray: powerful.

corona wrote: Technically though, I think we're a little beyond the point where we are talking about an abortion. By the time Bella arrives back home, yeah, but by the time her very life is on the line, what is it, a couple of days away from delivery? Renesmee wouldn't survive that? I think she's actually a little over 8 months in human-baby days.

Really, Carlisle should have just told Bella that the baby was due by the time Jacob showed up.

I wanted to say yes, in hindsight, Carlisle should have performed a c-section about a week before Renesmee was born. But, then again, Carlisle was in the dark about Renesmee's condition, her development and her need for blood. Well actually, the only thing Carlisle knew was that Bella and the fetus were starving before Bella drank her first cup of blood. Which meant, not only was the mother's condition weak but the child's condition was weak as well. So would, a) Renesmee had survive a premature birth in her weak condition and b) would Renesmee had had the strength to chew her way out in her weak condition and while suffocating? (Once Carlisle would have separated the stone-like amniotic sac and placenta from Bella so he could immediately perform the emergency vampirization on Bella, Renesmee’s oxygen would have been cut off and I think Rosalie had an inkling of this fact too). Now if we remember the actual delivery, Renesmee was NOT able to chew her way out while suffocating when her condition had improved with Bella’s blood drinking. So I don’t think Renesmee could have in her weak condition and c) would Carlisle, Esme or Rosalie had been quick enough to realize that Renesmee was suffocating and that one of them could help Renesmee by doing some chewing too before Renesmee's heart gave out? Don't know, and I don't think momma-Bella and future-foster-mom-Rose would dream of taking that chance.

[*EDIT*] I edited b) and c) of the above paragraph. I added a few more thoughts that I hadn't considered before.
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