Pride and Prejudice

General Discussion on the Twilight Universe

Moderators: December, bac, Bronze Haired Girl, cullengirl

Forum rules
Click for Forum Rules

Re: Pride and Prejudice

Postby Amivera » Sat Sep 27, 2008 9:13 pm

I suppose there are arguments for both sides.
Bella can appear to be strong at some points in the story, when it's necessary, but (IMO) for the majority of Twilight she's pretty weak.

Example: She might have an idea of what to do with James, but she's always stuck in the hands of the more capable vampire males. She has to sit around and wait for everyone to save her— it even says at one point that she's a real damsel in distress.

Even with the bloodtyping, Mike and Edward have to support her to the nurse's office.

Again, using improper judgement, when she runs off by herself in a city she's unfamiliar with and almost gets raped by a group of men.

When Edward admits he's been STALKING her (he even calls it that in Midnight Sun), she's flattered rather than put off. Elizabeth Bennet certainly wouldn't approve of that.

It's not in Twilight, but in Breaking Dawn Bella begs for sex. Not a strong female there. Very far from being strong.

Those points could definitely be argued against, but throughout the book there are little moments where Edward commands her to do things— or rather "dazzles" her into doing what he wants.
Elizabeth Bennet would never do something Darcy asked her just because his breath smelled good. :D

On the point that Bella doesn't have brothers and sisters or many relatives that are talked about, I think that makes it easier for her to be 'selfless', because she doesn't have much to care about. Charlie's off doing his own thing, having lived for 17 years without Bella around all the time. Renee has Phil now and she and Bella barely interact in Twilight.

(I may have gotten off topic here) but what I basically mean is that Elizabeth has a lot more to take care of than Bella. She's more responsible, motherly, nurturing, and selfless in that sense.
Bella can be strong, by I find she doesn't quite have the same 'spunk' Elizabeth does.
Agree? Disagree?
Blackwater. <3

potterpuff @ lj
User avatar
Amivera
Hiding Lauren's Hair Dye
 
Posts: 421
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:37 pm

Re: Pride and Prejudice

Postby moon sidhe » Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:03 pm

Amivera wrote:I suppose there are arguments for both sides.
Bella can appear to be strong at some points in the story, when it's necessary, but (IMO) for the majority of Twilight she's pretty weak.

Example: She might have an idea of what to do with James, but she's always stuck in the hands of the more capable vampire males. She has to sit around and wait for everyone to save her— it even says at one point that she's a real damsel in distress.

Even with the bloodtyping, Mike and Edward have to support her to the nurse's office.

Again, using improper judgement, when she runs off by herself in a city she's unfamiliar with and almost gets raped by a group of men.

When Edward admits he's been STALKING her (he even calls it that in Midnight Sun), she's flattered rather than put off. Elizabeth Bennet certainly wouldn't approve of that.

It's not in Twilight, but in Breaking Dawn Bella begs for sex. Not a strong female there. Very far from being strong.

Those points could definitely be argued against, but throughout the book there are little moments where Edward commands her to do things— or rather "dazzles" her into doing what he wants.
Elizabeth Bennet would never do something Darcy asked her just because his breath smelled good. :D

On the point that Bella doesn't have brothers and sisters or many relatives that are talked about, I think that makes it easier for her to be 'selfless', because she doesn't have much to care about. Charlie's off doing his own thing, having lived for 17 years without Bella around all the time. Renee has Phil now and she and Bella barely interact in Twilight.

(I may have gotten off topic here) but what I basically mean is that Elizabeth has a lot more to take care of than Bella. She's more responsible, motherly, nurturing, and selfless in that sense.
Bella can be strong, by I find she doesn't quite have the same 'spunk' Elizabeth does.
Agree? Disagree?


Sure, compared to all these other ultra strong mythical characters, Bella is weak. But I don't think it's fair to use them as our reference point. I guess it's fair to say that there's a bit of the damsel in distress motif in her clumsiness and fainting at the sight of blood. But ultimately, I think being caught up in a world full of beings who are many times more physically powerful than Bella is what makes her seem "weak." But I think that in her own world, she could take care of herself. Hell, she practically raised herself and took care of Renee while she was growing up. Also, the almost getting raped by a group of men? It was a dumb move to go off alone and not pay attention to her surroundings, sure, but she was ready to fight for herself. And I think that definitely showed some Lizzie-style spunk.

Also, stalking is in the eye of the beholder. I mean, if a guy likes me, and I have absolutely no interest in him as a friend or otherwise, I frequently tend to think of it as creepy, even if it's not exactly fair. If a guy I like is showing interest and showing up in the same places or calling me all the time? Well, I don't find that creepy, because I want to see him and hear from him. Bella obviously really liked Edward. So of course she would be flattered by the attention rather than put off by it.

Also, I really don't understand how a desire for sex has anything to do with whether or not you're a strong person. But I have a feeling this might be a fundamental difference in view points between the two of us. I'm not too sure that's a can of worms I want to deal with in this forum.

I think Bella has a certain quiet strength. She knows herself, and her opinions, etc. But ultimately I think I agree that she doesn't have quite the same spunkiness that Lizzie has.
You are in my blood like holy wine
and you taste so bitter but you taste so sweet
Oh I could drink a case of you darling
And I would still be on my feet
User avatar
moon sidhe
Helping Mike to Get a Clue
 
Posts: 543
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:09 am

Re: Pride and Prejudice

Postby Amivera » Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:48 pm

moon sidhe wrote:
Also, stalking is in the eye of the beholder. I mean, if a guy likes me, and I have absolutely no interest in him as a friend or otherwise, I frequently tend to think of it as creepy, even if it's not exactly fair. If a guy I like is showing interest and showing up in the same places or calling me all the time? Well, I don't find that creepy, because I want to see him and hear from him. Bella obviously really liked Edward. So of course she would be flattered by the attention rather than put off by it.

Also, I really don't understand how a desire for sex has anything to do with whether or not you're a strong person. But I have a feeling this might be a fundamental difference in view points between the two of us. I'm not too sure that's a can of worms I want to deal with in this forum.


I agree. A lot has to do with the viewpoint.
Stalking, however, I don't see as something objective. There's a fine line between a guy trailing behind you like a puppy (Mike-style) and one who oils your window so it's easier to sneak in and watch you sleep. Not to mention we learned in Midnight Sun that he did this before he even knew Bella and decided he was in love with her before they'd even had a full conversation.

(Off topic: I also did not find much chemistry between Edward and Bella, so our points of view would definitely differ right there).
Blackwater. <3

potterpuff @ lj
User avatar
Amivera
Hiding Lauren's Hair Dye
 
Posts: 421
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:37 pm

Re: Pride and Prejudice

Postby moon sidhe » Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:54 pm

Amivera wrote:I agree. A lot has to do with the viewpoint.
Stalking, however, I don't see as something objective. There's a fine line between a guy trailing behind you like a puppy (Mike-style) and one who oils your window so it's easier to sneak in and watch you sleep. Not to mention we learned in Midnight Sun that he did this before he even knew Bella and decided he was in love with her before they'd even had a full conversation.

(Off topic: I also did not find much chemistry between Edward and Bella, so our points of view would definitely differ right there).


Yeah, objectively, I agree that Edward was stalking her. But I'm willing to let it slide because we know that he didn't have bad intentions at all. He didn't want to take advantage of her in any way. He was just... fascinated. I think he was just trying to understand her, as well as his burgeoning feelings for her. You're right that he hadn't totally fallen for her before that one night in her room, but he had certainly started to develop feelings for her, as she had for him.

Actually, I think I should re-post this in the Edward forum since we're kinda off topic now. Sorry! I'll re-post this there if you want to respond to it.
You are in my blood like holy wine
and you taste so bitter but you taste so sweet
Oh I could drink a case of you darling
And I would still be on my feet
User avatar
moon sidhe
Helping Mike to Get a Clue
 
Posts: 543
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:09 am

Re: Pride and Prejudice

Postby glstewart » Sun Sep 28, 2008 7:21 am

In P&P, Elizabeth definitely did not like Mr. Darcy for a good part of the book...she adamantly refused his marriage proposal, and told him to get lost, then she began to really look at his character and ruefully realized what she gave up. Not that Mr. Darcy's first proposal was all that heart-stopping -- "I would like to give you the honor of becoming my wife, even though I am far superior to you..." How dazzling :? .

Bella, on the other hand, was smitten with Edward from the moment she first laid eyes on him in the cafeteria. She knew it didn't make sense for her to be happy when he was in school, and crushed when he wasn't. Even during that first month or so (after he saved her from the truck) when Edward wasn't speaking to her, she never felt any real animosity towards him, and when he decided to throw caution to the wind and began to build a relationship with her, she was on board immediately.

Mr. Darcy had some serious ego-issues to overcome, while Edward's main concern was, "do I risk killing her, or not?"

I can see a very loose parallel between the two books, but they are each their own stories.
I Want to Believe
glstewart
Teaching Eric Social Graces
 
Posts: 260
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:12 am
Location: Roaming the woods with Jake

Re: Pride and Prejudice

Postby Spartan » Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:32 pm

Firstly - I love both P&P and the Twilight series.
To Be honest for most of this i agree with Amivera though i think MoonSidhe is right with what she says here :

moon sidhe wrote:
Amivera wrote:I agree. A lot has to do with the viewpoint.
Stalking, however, I don't see as something objective. There's a fine line between a guy trailing behind you like a puppy (Mike-style) and one who oils your window so it's easier to sneak in and watch you sleep. Not to mention we learned in Midnight Sun that he did this before he even knew Bella and decided he was in love with her before they'd even had a full conversation.


Yeah, objectively, I agree that Edward was stalking her. But I'm willing to let it slide because we know that he didn't have bad intentions at all. He didn't want to take advantage of her in any way. He was just... fascinated. I think he was just trying to understand her, as well as his burgeoning feelings for her. You're right that he hadn't totally fallen for her before that one night in her room, but he had certainly started to develop feelings for her, as she had for him.


Anyway - I think that Bella and Lizzy's characters are really different . Lizzy is a very independant and strong woman in a really obvious way , she'll argue her point and express her opinion openely. But Bella is quite different - not saying that she's weak. Bella IS strong but less openly, she'll voice her opinion on important things but the rest she's just willing to let others have thier way.Bella and Lizzy have entirely different situations and backgrounds so you can't really compare thier actions.

And for the other character comparations - I get them but I think it is a bit clutching at straws.
Mike's only resemblance to Mr Collins is that he wants to hook up with Bells but she has no intrest in him. It stops there, Mr Collins is a pompous idiot who thinks he knows about women, Mike is a decent, average guy who fancies Bella.
Jacob and Mr Whickham - They aren't very similar at all. Whickham has no morals but plenty of charm and never had any real interest in Lizzy. Jacob on the other hand was truly in love with Bella and SM never said anything about him being particularly charming, and yeh Jake did act like a prat where Bella was concerned but he is young, immature and overall thought that Bella would be better off with him - not once did he do something truly sinful ( <i can't think of any words to say it.)
Edward and Darcy. Granted they both hold old-fashioned beliefs, speak properly and are rich yet they are very different from eachother in General. part of this is due to the times they were raised in - in early 19th century England sex was almost always only for the procreation of an heir in wealthy married couples and women were only really supposed to stand by thier husbands and sort out the house. so this was how Mr Darcy would have expected Lizzy to behave - that's just how it was. Edward however would give Bella plenty of freedom ( within reason of her being the biggest danger magnet ever) if she wanted it and he wants to have sex with her aswell - his reasoons for holding back are all to do with her welfare. Also Money doesn't affect society in quite the same way it did when jane Austen was around, so that changes Edward and Darcy's situations. ( oh and I would work out Darcy's income at about £500,000 today [ half a million ])

In general I don't think that P&P is that similar to the Twilight series
* * Sapere Aude * * Jasper is my Edward : D
Spartan
Hanging Up on Jessica
 
Posts: 659
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 5:46 pm
Location: Looking for my Mercedes Guardian

Re: Pride and Prejudice

Postby debussygirl » Sat Oct 18, 2008 8:47 pm

Amivera wrote:
Example: She might have an idea of what to do with James, but she's always stuck in the hands of the more capable vampire males. She has to sit around and wait for everyone to save her— it even says at one point that she's a real damsel in distress.

Even with the bloodtyping, Mike and Edward have to support her to the nurse's office.

If you remember correctly, Alice was also there. So it's not the fact that Bella's a girl, it's that she's a human.
My friend is very weak when it comes to blood. But that doesn't mean she's weak when someone's messing with her. She stands up for herself and does not take crap from anyone. So just because Bella faints from blood doesn't mean anything. She would have needed help anyway, but of course Mike would go see her to it-be her hero or whatever he was thinking. Edward being there just made the moment and showed his concern for her.
Image
Team Edward&Esme~SBS Assistant 2 the Cobosses~APPC
St Cullens Head of Neurology~Tetrarch
Need something to read? Try http://www.jennacooper.com
User avatar
debussygirl
Joining the Hunt for Enemies
 
Posts: 6978
Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:10 pm
Location: preparing for next winter

Re: Pride and Prejudice

Postby Amivera » Sun Oct 19, 2008 9:54 am

Good for your friend, but Bella is not your friend. It's not just when she faints from blood that she's weak. She weak overall. She's a damsel in distress— a girl that always needs saving, is treated like a baby, and doesn't use common sense (i.e when she walked around a city she had never been to before and was almost raped, but didn't think much of it afterwards).

Showing indifference to dangerous acts is not the best thing. It's like when a child runs across the street and is almost hit by a car. Afterwards, the child is not supposed to say "I don't really care. I'm good at repressing bad things."
NO.
The child should realize its mistake and remember not to act like a fool again.

Also, she really did need Mike and Edward's help, because, if you remember correctly, she ended up lying on the concrete and Edward had to carry her to the nurse's office.

ETA: Also, the male vampires DO hold the power throughout the books.
Blackwater. <3

potterpuff @ lj
User avatar
Amivera
Hiding Lauren's Hair Dye
 
Posts: 421
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:37 pm

Re: Pride and Prejudice

Postby waiting tobe dazzled » Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:12 am

Amivera wrote:Good for your friend, but Bella is not your friend. It's not just when she faints from blood that she's weak. She weak overall. She's a damsel in distress— a girl that always needs saving, is treated like a baby, and doesn't use common sense (i.e when she walked around a city she had never been to before and was almost raped, but didn't think much of it afterwards).

Showing indifference to dangerous acts is not the best thing. It's like when a child runs across the street and is almost hit by a car. Afterwards, the child is not supposed to say "I don't really care. I'm good at repressing bad things."
NO.
The child should realize its mistake and remember not to act like a fool again.

Also, she really did need Mike and Edward's help, because, if you remember correctly, she ended up lying on the concrete and Edward had to carry her to the nurse's office.

ETA: Also, the male vampires DO hold the power throughout the books.


In Bella's defense on the same night of the almost rape, she found out that the guy she liked not only liked her but that he was officially a vampire.
Personally, I know which one would stick out in my mind.
She also does realize that it was dangerous or else when she was in her depressed state and trying dangerous things, she wouldn't have approached the strange men.
Just because they had to help her to the nurse's office doesn't make her weak. She couldn’t help that blood made her sick and dizzy, plus the whole time she was telling Edward to put her down.
Image
Avatar by allieb
Field Supervisor of EDC, Inc.
Team Edward-Knight in Shining Volvo
Team Rosalie-Every Rose has it's thorn
Cotton Candy Revolutionists~Jell-O Wars of 09’
User avatar
waiting tobe dazzled
Has Caught Sight of Edward
 
Posts: 1014
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:56 pm
Location: Looking for Emmett in East Tennessee

Re: Pride and Prejudice

Postby Gitta » Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:49 am

Amivera wrote:Good for your friend, but Bella is not your friend. It's not just when she faints from blood that she's weak. She weak overall. She's a damsel in distress— a girl that always needs saving, is treated like a baby, and doesn't use common sense (i.e when she walked around a city she had never been to before and was almost raped, but didn't think much of it afterwards).

Showing indifference to dangerous acts is not the best thing. It's like when a child runs across the street and is almost hit by a car. Afterwards, the child is not supposed to say "I don't really care. I'm good at repressing bad things."
NO.
The child should realize its mistake and remember not to act like a fool again.

Also, she really did need Mike and Edward's help, because, if you remember correctly, she ended up lying on the concrete and Edward had to carry her to the nurse's office.

ETA: Also, the male vampires DO hold the power throughout the books.


I agree with you in that sense that she acted very foolish in Port Angeles, but however I don't think Bella is weak. Maybee physically (until she became a vampire) but she has a very strong mind stronger, than Edwards. She survived when he left her, she did do a couple of stupid things but she survived. When she found out that a vampire army of newborns were created to kill her she didn't freak out, she was only worried about her friends and family and wanted to help as little as she could. And she stubborn and determinated and that's also a sign of a very strong and independet mind, but it's a fine line between stubborness and pure stupidity.
User avatar
Gitta
Wandering Through Town
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:47 am
Location: Stockholm

PreviousNext

Return to Quench Your Thirst

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests