Imprinting

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Landiana
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Re: Imprinting

Post by Landiana »

[quote="holdingoutforjacobPoor Embry should be able to tell his poor mother that he's NOT a juvenile delinquent! I think she's going to notice when he stops aging anyway.[/quote]

i agree with that, because how do the people who imprinted on explain to their families about the new love in their life? how do you tell your parents that you new boyfriend, who they have never heard about before, looks like they are ten years older than you and disapear mysteriously?
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Angelvamp
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Re: Imprinting

Post by Angelvamp »

Ok, so I was watching Kung Fu Panda last night and had a little epiphany regarding imprinting when Oogway tells Shifu to give up the illusion of control (no spoilers here, if you haven't seen this movie - but you should, it's great!). Here's the thought it inspired:

The issue of choice has been very important when discussing this phenomenon and many take great offense to the idea of imprinting because of the supposed lack of choice. I think what is upsetting to people is not the fact that they don't have a choice, it's that they don't have control. What Oogway is saying is that this is an illusion. People don't have control and this is deeply disturbing to some. It has been brought up in previous posts that non-imprinted people in love have the choice (or control) over how to respond to their relationships and imprinted people don't. I do not believe that this is true because of objectivity. I believe that someone in love that's not imprinted will have the same objective view regarding their relationship as someone that is imprinted. Sure you can choose how to deal with the relationship in theory. But in reality, your view is from the inside and it would be really hard, nigh impossible, to apply cold hard math to something so close to you.

Only humans lament their lack of control. Humans in general are so egotistical. It is evidenced in the fact that human blood is so much more appealing than any other blood. Why is this? Wild animals attack humans because they are comparitively weaker than their normal prey, not because they are tastier or in any other way more superior. This idea is also evidenced by the glut of superfluous powers vampires have, just to hunt humans! The vampires (or antagonists) in this series and possibly all other series, directly relate and mirror their human prey (or protagonists). What I am trying to say is that vampires are a commentary on how people view human kind. Humans are so omnipotent that they need a supernatural predator just to take them out! The whole idea is ludicrous and rife with superiority complex.
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Starla
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Re: Imprinting

Post by Starla »

I have to respectfully disagree.
The issue of choice has been very important when discussing this phenomenon and many take great offense to the idea of imprinting because of the supposed lack of choice. I think what is upsetting to people is not the fact that they don't have a choice, it's that they don't have control.
Though I understand your theory, to not have any control in a relationship to me is extremely unhealthy. I can understand deep, intense love (and am currently in the midst of such a feeling) but if it is a love in which you cannot choose to walk away (say the love some feel for abusive partners) then, imo, it isn't love but an infatuation.
What Oogway is saying is that this is an illusion. People don't have control and this is deeply disturbing to some. It has been brought up in previous posts that non-imprinted people in love have the choice (or control) over how to respond to their relationships and imprinted people don't. I do not believe that this is true because of objectivity. I believe that someone in love that's not imprinted will have the same objective view regarding their relationship as someone that is imprinted. Sure you can choose how to deal with the relationship in theory. But in reality, your view is from the inside and it would be really hard, nigh impossible, to apply cold hard math to something so close to you.
I don't believe that imprinting offers any of the options that we, in normal relationships have. Like I mentioned before, and forgive the extreme analogy, if you discover that your husband/partner is a disturbed serial killer or even a pedophile, you have the choice to leave--even if there is a chance that you might still love them.

We know imprints have to give their imprintees whatever they want so how would that work? It wouldn't. There would be no choice to leave. There is no such choice within the parameters of imprinting because what the imprinters feel no longer matters in regards to their imprints.
Only humans lament their lack of control. Humans in general are so egotistical. It is evidenced in the fact that human blood is so much more appealing than any other blood. Why is this? Wild animals attack humans because they are comparitively weaker than their normal prey, not because they are tastier or in any other way more superior. This idea is also evidenced by the glut of superfluous powers vampires have, just to hunt humans! The vampires (or antagonists) in this series and possibly all other series, directly relate and mirror their human prey (or protagonists). What I am trying to say is that vampires are a commentary on how people view human kind. Humans are so omnipotent that they need a supernatural predator just to take them out! The whole idea is ludicrous and rife with superiority complex.
I agree to an extent about humans superiority complex but that still doesn't make it irrelevant. If we were to live our lives according to the rules of the animal kingdom, then we would go into heat every few months, breed with our closest male relatives and rip animals to shreds with our bare hands.

To say that imprinting is a completely natural process isn't incorrect but that still, imo, doesn't make it right.
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Re: Imprinting

Post by Asheleyo »

Angelvamp wrote:Ok, so I was watching Kung Fu Panda last night and had a little epiphany regarding imprinting when Oogway tells Shifu to give up the illusion of control (no spoilers here, if you haven't seen this movie - but you should, it's great!). Here's the thought it inspired:

The issue of choice has been very important when discussing this phenomenon and many take great offense to the idea of imprinting because of the supposed lack of choice. I think what is upsetting to people is not the fact that they don't have a choice, it's that they don't have control. What Oogway is saying is that this is an illusion. People don't have control and this is deeply disturbing to some. It has been brought up in previous posts that non-imprinted people in love have the choice (or control) over how to respond to their relationships and imprinted people don't. I do not believe that this is true because of objectivity. I believe that someone in love that's not imprinted will have the same objective view regarding their relationship as someone that is imprinted. Sure you can choose how to deal with the relationship in theory. But in reality, your view is from the inside and it would be really hard, nigh impossible, to apply cold hard math to something so close to you.

Only humans lament their lack of control. Humans in general are so egotistical. It is evidenced in the fact that human blood is so much more appealing than any other blood. Why is this? Wild animals attack humans because they are comparitively weaker than their normal prey, not because they are tastier or in any other way more superior. This idea is also evidenced by the glut of superfluous powers vampires have, just to hunt humans! The vampires (or antagonists) in this series and possibly all other series, directly relate and mirror their human prey (or protagonists). What I am trying to say is that vampires are a commentary on how people view human kind. Humans are so omnipotent that they need a supernatural predator just to take them out! The whole idea is ludicrous and rife with superiority complex.
I like your theories. I think they hit the mark pretty close. I don't have the issue with imprinting that everyone else seems to have. I think it being more like animals in nature fits the tribe, not just because they shapeshift into wolves, but because native Americans have always been considered to keep closer to their roots in nature. Besides, from the perspective of a wolf in that tribe, I would imagine that after imprinting, the mentality you have about it is that "If I have to be a wolf, at least I get to be so incredibly in love!"

I think people keep ignoring what it's like from within the situation. We get a skewed vision from Jacob because he doesn't want to imprint solely because he wants to cling to the love he feels for Bella. But once he's imprinted and when he talks to anyone else that has, no one's miserable about it. Why is everyone so upset when the people who are experiencing it are so happy? Who cares if it seems like they've been brainwashed? What person in love doesn't?
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Re: Imprinting

Post by Angelvamp »

Starla wrote:Though I understand your theory, to not have any control in a relationship to me is extremely unhealthy. I can understand deep, intense love (and am currently in the midst of such a feeling) but if it is a love in which you cannot choose to walk away (say the love some feel for abusive partners) then, imo, it isn't love but an infatuation.

I don't believe that imprinting offers any of the options that we, in normal relationships have. Like I mentioned before, and forgive the extreme analogy, if you discover that your husband/partner is a disturbed serial killer or even a pedophile, you have the choice to leave--even if there is a chance that you might still love them.

We know imprints have to give their imprintees whatever they want so how would that work? It wouldn't. There would be no choice to leave. There is no such choice within the parameters of imprinting because what the imprinters feel no longer matters in regards to their imprints.
Unfortunately Starla, it appears you do not understand my theory. That control, to an extent, is an illusion. And that lack of objectivity prevents many people from making healthy decisions in relationships, even though they can choose to do so. Control is a very potent issue for some people, they can't accept any influence but themselves as it applies to their lives and relationships. I believe this to be far more unhealthy than to be able to walk away from a relationship. Really, love is about acceptance, not whether you can walk away or not. Also, based on your description of love, it seems Edward and Bella have an "infatuation".
Starla wrote:I agree to an extent about humans superiority complex but that still doesn't make it irrelevant. If we were to live our lives according to the rules of the animal kingdom, then we would go into heat every few months, breed with our closest male relatives and rip animals to shreds with our bare hands.
Woo hoo, now you're talkin'! :lol:

I tend to smile when people think of themselves as superior to or apart from animals. To imply that humans aren't animals, or that we make all our decisions based on intellect, is naive at best. No, sadly, acknowledging human superiority complex doesn't negate its relevance or, more importantly, its impact on the world we animals all share.
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Angelvamp
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Re: Imprinting

Post by Angelvamp »

Asheleyo wrote:I like your theories. I think they hit the mark pretty close. I don't have the issue with imprinting that everyone else seems to have. I think it being more like animals in nature fits the tribe, not just because they shapeshift into wolves, but because native Americans have always been considered to keep closer to their roots in nature. Besides, from the perspective of a wolf in that tribe, I would imagine that after imprinting, the mentality you have about it is that "If I have to be a wolf, at least I get to be so incredibly in love!"

I think people keep ignoring what it's like from within the situation. We get a skewed vision from Jacob because he doesn't want to imprint solely because he wants to cling to the love he feels for Bella. But once he's imprinted and when he talks to anyone else that has, no one's miserable about it. Why is everyone so upset when the people who are experiencing it are so happy? Who cares if it seems like they've been brainwashed? What person in love doesn't?
Thanks for the support, Asheleyo. :) I don't mean to delve so deeply into philosophical waters, but sometimes I just gotta! heehee I don't really have an issue with imprinting, it's more of a curiosity than anything. After all, we can't change it and neither can SM so might as well enjoy the ride. ;)
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Pendragon
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Re: Imprinting

Post by Pendragon »

I have to disagree with you as well Angelvamp. I do not believe that control is an illusion to some extent and that it pretty much does exist in human live. Both in life and love there are things we humans can control and some things we can not. I agree that we too are like animals in someways and that humans can will follow basic animal instincts at times, but what sets us apart from animals is that we have control of our bare instincts. Sure there are times where humans we known to give in to bare animal instincts, but the fact remains that we have control of those. Choice, I believe, is an important aspect in a healthy loving relationship just as acceptance is. Sure there are times where people do not choose to accept their relationships and run away, but in the end choice is a part of all relationships just as it is a part of human live. I agree that we can't really control who we love, but we can control what we do with it. We can choose to enter a relationship with the one we love, we can choose to leave the other person if the heartache they cause outweighed the love we have for them. Yes a normal person can seem a bit brainwashed when in love, but that is completely the case of imprinting. In the last pages of BD when Jacob described imprinting on Nessie, he described it as every thing that made him who he is disconnected and that the only aspect left is his new love for Nessie. To me that seems like his love for Nessie is all that makes up who he his and that we're left of a shell of the former Jacob. I believe that when your significant other, your love for them make up a big part of who you are. Not becomes your entire being.
suzzeeQ
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Re: Imprinting

Post by suzzeeQ »

Pendragon wrote: In the last pages of BD when Jacob described imprinting on Nessie, he described it as every thing that made him who he is disconnected and that the only aspect left is his new love for Nessie. To me that seems like his love for Nessie is all that makes up who he his and that we're left of a shell of the former Jacob. I believe that when your significant other, your love for them make up a big part of who you are. Not becomes your entire being.

This makes me feel incredibly sad. Especially agree with what I bolded.
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Re: Imprinting

Post by elisemusta »

I have been very confused about imprinting.

If imprinting would be just the way how wolves find their soul mates, their true love, so that they just in some supernatural way knew that she/he is going to be The Right One with whom you make an equal and perfect companionship in every way, I could easily accept it.

But now there seems to be some very disturbing things. I don't know if I mind so much the choice thing. Because I don't actually think we can really choose who we fell in love with. And imprinting is not like your parents would force you to take a partner you don't like at all but it seems always include love too. If the love begins from imprinting or in natural way (whatever that is :) ) I don't see so much difference. So if you fell in love with the person you know is the perfect match for you in every way that's not so bad, is it.

Talking about imprinting happens to find the perfect mate to pass the wolf gene makes me a bit suspicious. I don't know what to think about that. I don't think it could be just that simple. Maybe it is just a part of it.

But what disturbs me most is this:
Pendragon wrote: In the last pages of BD when Jacob described imprinting on Nessie, he described it as every thing that made him who he is disconnected and that the only aspect left is his new love for Nessie. To me that seems like his love for Nessie is all that makes up who he his and that we're left of a shell of the former Jacob. I believe that when your significant other, your love for them make up a big part of who you are. Not becomes your entire being.
Thank you Pendragon for formulating it so well.
If imprinting causes that the person's real personality vanishes and he/she becomes like a weak-willed slave who's only thought is to please his/her imprintee that is frightening! It doesn't help at all if you are madly ”in love” and seem to be happy because there is actually nobody who really could feel that happiness.

If imprinting is that it is a curse for the wolf people.

I think it is a real pity we were not able to hear Jacob's thoughts and feelings after the imprinting had happened. We see Jacob so little in the last half of BD. I think we would understand imprinting much better if we had got his PoW of some of the later scenes too.
Not bad for a prison break, eh?
Angelvamp
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Re: Imprinting

Post by Angelvamp »

I expected a lot more people to disagree with me than that! :lol: Especially since it would only prove my point more about control and humans being egotistical. The issue of control is a provocative subject, probably best left to professors and sifus.
Pendragon wrote:I do not believe that control is an illusion to some extent and that it pretty much does exist in human live. Both in life and love there are things we humans can control and some things we can not.
Your second statement contradicts your first one. There are things that we can control and things we can't, you are correct in that. But which is which? That is the problem a lot of people have. Suddenly I have the Serenity prayer in my head...
Pendragon wrote:I agree that we too are like animals in someways and that humans can will follow basic animal instincts at times, but what sets us apart from animals is that we have control of our bare instincts. Sure there are times where humans we known to give in to bare animal instincts, but the fact remains that we have control of those.
:shock: We are like animals? Um, we are animals. And that we have control of our base instincts...well, what else is rationalization for? :D I'm not sure it's a "fact" that we have control of our base instincts. Because we don't act on them does that mean that we control them? Who's to say that our actions are not unconsciously contrived to respond to our instincts and that we end up satisfying that instinct through a series of actions instead of directly? Human motives behind actions and reactions are really subjective. I think this particular issue is something on which we can agree to disagree, since neither side can really be scientifically proven. I don't think so anyway. Same goes for the issue of control.

However, it's been fun to discuss! :)

Thanks for your last post Pendragon, it finally clicked with me on why people are so anti-imprinting. I can understand a little more now why it is such an incendiary issue, although I still don't feel that strongly about it. Just one of the things us mere humans can't change... :)
"Life is pain...anyone who tells you different is selling something."
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