Explorations (**BD2 Movie Spoilers!**)

[cullengirl]

I have to agree with you that in BD, Jacob really became the wonderful man he was destined to be. He was fighting for Bella all through the Saga, but only as a young man fights for a girl he thinks he likes. He really annoyed me in EC, though. However, I didn't see his losses as any greater than those Edward endured and chose to endure for Bella. Yes, Edward was a dork for leaving, no matter what his excuse was, but he did endure tremendous pain for Bella in every way. Up until BD, Jacob doesn't give up anything for her. He is willing to love her and help her, even as broken as she was. He did love her in every human way, I believe. But he didn't love her and sacrifice for her like Edward did. The very fact that Edward was willing to let him have Bella if it was best for her makes Edward the better man in my eyes.

Jacob doesn't think he loves Bella. He does love her, but his love is not reciprocated. It is Bella who says she isn't sure how she feels toward Jacob, but deep down she loves him too-which is why he behaved the way he did in Eclipse (though I don't condone his forced kiss upon her). Jacob, for me, is a symbol of Bella's humanity, an alternative lifestyle, and things she would have lost if she was turned. However, BD if it's read as a conclusion to TW, NM, and EC, negates Jacob's value because Bella does get all that she sees with Jacob as a vampire. Jacob endured a fight helping the Cullens against the new borns and was injured. One of the most heart breaking scenes in the Saga is Bella telling Jacob goodbye at the end of Eclipse. He loses his best friend and a love to Edward. Jacob suffers from not being loved as he loves others. He sacrifices his pride and love for Bella's happiness, which is why he runs away at the end of Eclipse.

[andypalmer]

However, BD if it's read as a conclusion to TW, NM, and EC, negates Jacob's value because Bella does get all that she sees with Jacob as a vampire.

I disagree. Bellas vision included normal children growing up and playing with a future including her and Jacob growing old together. Bella will never have that future. Having Renesmee doesn't satisfy that vision; if anything it creates an even greater contrast. Human mothers go through the joy of teaching their children, of watching them grow and learn; Bella doesn't have that with Renesmee - it's a completely foreign feeling with only the bond between mother and child holding any similarity.

[cullengirl]

Bellas vision included normal children growing up and playing with a future including her and Jacob growing old together.

I disagree to some extent and that's maybe because of how I view Jacob and Nessie's relationship. Jacob and Bella will remain the same age as long as Nessie continues to grow (more true for Jacob than Bella, who will remain immortal), both are guardians of Nessie. True, Bella and Jacob will not be mates, but they are still in each others lives.

[Total Twilight Fan]

Here's something I just thought of.


Having blood in her veins may make her a stronger vampire, as it is stated that the newborns are so strong because of her own blood, but why is she growing so fast?

If Edward does not age at all, and Bella ages normally, would she not age slowly instead of quickly?


Mod Edit:
This is taking us a little far from the current topic of conversation -- moving this post to the Renesmee thread.

[GrayceM]

Here's something I just thought of.


Having blood in her veins may make her a stronger vampire, as it is stated that the newborns are so strong because of her own blood, but why is she growing so fast?

If Edward does not age at all, and Bella ages normally, would she not age slowly instead of quickly?

Though I think this may be better discussed under the "Science" section, I have a theory on this. Alice explains that the fetus has something in common with Jacob because she can't see it and if you remember Jacob's growth rate to maturity is extremely fast once he begins the transformation process. Once he reaches physical adulthood, he stops aging until he quits transforming. Carlisle thinks that the fetus may have the same number of chromosomes as Jacob because of the whole hybrid thing. He says that they, the vampires, have 25 pairs of chromosomes compaired to a humans 23 pairs and states, "I thought that meant that our species were almost completely different. Less related than a lion and a house cat. But this new life - well, it suggests that we're more genetically compatible than I'd thought." .
So even though Renesmee is Bella and Edward's biological daughter, she would have similar genetic make up to other hybrids. Think of mixing the two gene sequences instead of one taking over the other. Which makes me wonder if Jacob's DNA would be different in wolf form...

Mod Edit:
Moving this post too. Let's keep replies to this question on the Renesme thread (link above).

[Openhome]

Jacob doesn't think he loves Bella. He does love her, but his love is not reciprocated. It is Bella who says she isn't sure how she feels toward Jacob, but deep down she loves him too-which is why he behaved the way he did in Eclipse (though I don't condone his forced kiss upon her). Jacob, for me, is a symbol of Bella's humanity, an alternative lifestyle, and things she would have lost if she was turned. However, BD if it's read as a conclusion to TW, NM, and EC, negates Jacob's value because Bella does get all that she sees with Jacob as a vampire. Jacob endured a fight helping the Cullens against the new borns and was injured. One of the most heart breaking scenes in the Saga is Bella telling Jacob goodbye at the end of Eclipse. He loses his best friend and a love to Edward. Jacob suffers from not being loved as he loves others. He sacrifices his pride and love for Bella's happiness, which is why he runs away at the end of Eclipse.

I think we actually agree on this point. Jacob in the end of Eclipse and in BD is truly the tragic hero. I honestly think that part of what Stephenie was setting up for him was an even happier HEA because of all that he endured at the end of Eclipse and throughout BD. In any other story, he would have met the tragic and heroic end that she seemed to be setting up for him (the sacrifice that Bella would have to bear for all eternity and that we were all expecting). His ending is the most forced of all of them, IMO. And I'm still not sure about the imprinting thing.

However, and we are going to simply have to agree to disagree, I still see Edward as suffering more. In BD, Jacob is ripped apart, but Edward is shredded and "the burning man." I also still see Jacob as more of a child than a man, though the man does emerge at the end. Just me.

By the way, the Science of Twilight thread has some wonderful discussions on DNA hybrids. Anyone interested should go have a look.

[December]

Hey all, just to let you know that we've now got a branch of the Explorations thread in the new Bree Tanner forum to give us somewhere to hold Explorations-type conversations about Bree's novella without posting spoilers here. Openhome and I were having a convo on the Discrepancies thread which began veering in an Explorations sort of a direction, so I've copied the relevant posts into an Explorations of Bree Tanner thread and taken that as a starting point for our discussion. Come join in when and if you've read the novella.

[holdingoutforjacob]

Jacob doesn't think he loves Bella. He does love her, but his love is not reciprocated. It is Bella who says she isn't sure how she feels toward Jacob, but deep down she loves him too-which is why he behaved the way he did in Eclipse (though I don't condone his forced kiss upon her). Jacob, for me, is a symbol of Bella's humanity, an alternative lifestyle, and things she would have lost if she was turned. However, BD if it's read as a conclusion to TW, NM, and EC, negates Jacob's value because Bella does get all that she sees with Jacob as a vampire. Jacob endured a fight helping the Cullens against the new borns and was injured. One of the most heart breaking scenes in the Saga is Bella telling Jacob goodbye at the end of Eclipse. He loses his best friend and a love to Edward. Jacob suffers from not being loved as he loves others. He sacrifices his pride and love for Bella's happiness, which is why he runs away at the end of Eclipse.

I completely agree with everything you've said here. "Ethics" where Bella tells Jacob goodbye is easily the most heartbreaking chapter for me, of the entire saga.

I think that both Edward and Jacob suffered as much as possible throughout the books. Jacob suffered as much as one can over human love, and we all know that what Edward and Bella have is more than human love. But really, how do we equate one suffering with another? I mean, we saw Jacob give up his pride, put himself out there for heartbreak and rejection again, and again, and again, suffer Edward's slights at him, put up with Bella's indecisiveness and, at times, thoughtlessness. We saw him endure all this on simply the tiny, glimmering hope that somehow, he could get her to realize she loved him too, all the while knowing that that probably still wouldn't be enough, but that the pain of knowing he didn't try would be worse. Then we saw him fail, and while he was expecting it, he still suffered unimaginably. And that's just in Eclipse. Breaking Dawn is a whole other story. There we saw him lose his best friend and love to the worst fate he can imagine. Edward, throughout all of this, at least always knew that Bella was in love with him. That's not to minimize his suffering, but I don't think we can really say one suffered more than the other.

Openhome - I wonder what turns a boy to a man? I believe that Jacob is a boy throughout New Moon, Eclipse is his journey to manhood, and then in Breaking Dawn he is a man.

[Openhome]

Openhome - I wonder what turns a boy to a man? I believe that Jacob is a boy throughout New Moon, Eclipse is his journey to manhood, and then in Breaking Dawn he is a man.

Wow. You don't ask easy questions, do you?

Cultures for centuries have asked the same thing, so I don't think I will be a whole lot of help here. I would love to hear Cullengirl's view on this as well.

The only way I can answer your question is by answering it in the book. I really feel like he is still a boy in many ways in New Moon and throughout most of Eclipse. I adore the boy he is and I love seeing the hints at the wonderful, giving man he will become. It isn't until his last try with Bella (tent scene) that I think he begins to understand the hardships that he will be asked to endure as a man, because it isn't until that moment that he understands he must be willing to accept her choice.

Any child enters adulthood when they are able to think outside of themselves and put their needs aside for a greater purpose - we call this empathy and it is the ability to truly understand others and see the world around them. I know some forty year olds who haven't looked beyond their own needs, so there is no real age at which this occurs. We see that Jacob is still struggling with his childlike desires at Bella's wedding, but we also see that he is now growing beyond himself and willing to TRULY give up himself and his dreams for her. Before that point, he loved her, and he was willing to give up a great deal to love her, but he wasn't willing to let her choose her own fate. In many ways, Jacob in Eclipse is like Edward in New Moon, in my opinion. He is willing to sacrifice for Bella, but he isn't willing to let her make her own choice. He is still a little too immature.

When does Jacob become that man? When he stands up to Sam. He did this for Bella, for the choice she made. It is the point at which he is willing to sacrifice his own desires for something he disagrees with because it is simply the right thing to do. I think he made it there before that point, but it is clearly shown in that one moment that he is ready to assume the role of a man.

Andy, Cullengirl, December, Knives: I would love your take on both aspects of her question.

[andypalmer]

When does Jacob become that man? When he stands up to Sam. He did this for Bella, for the choice she made. It is the point at which he is willing to sacrifice his own desires for something he disagrees with because it is simply the right thing to do. I think he made it there before that point, but it is clearly shown in that one moment that he is ready to assume the role of a man.

He becomes a man when he accepts the responsibility, accepts his birthright, and stands up to Sam. Most importantly, he does this, not for Bella (or rather not just for Bella) but because he understands that attacking the Cullens is wrong, not only in general, but for his pack in particular.

The Greeks had many wise sayings. One was, to paraphrase, "A boy must kill his father in order to be a man." While taken a bit too far in Oedipus Rex, it's an important metaphor describing how, to become a man, the boy must step out from his father's shadow and fully stand on his own two feet (symbolically killing the hold, the command, the influence that his father holds over him). Jacob does not take this step until he accepts his birthright, finally ceasing to just be part of the pack, a follower of others with a childish independent streak.