Edward and Bella 2

[diane771]

Hey all. Sorry, I have been travelling a lot for work and not able to post over the last few days. But, I wanted to jump in quickly. I hope you don't mind.

So, last night as I was reading through the last few pages of missed posts and IMing my husband at the same time, I actually IMd him about this discussion. Now, he has read all the novels each twice (He's a proud TwiGuy ) but his favorite of the works is DHN. And he takes much of it as the equivalent of gospel where Twilight is concerned. His contention (and yes this started a great debate) was that, despite his intentions, Edward was selfish because he saw himself as such. Regardless of how we or anyone else interprets his intentions, he saw every one of his actions as selfish and hurtful. Thus, he contends, Edward is a selfish being because he defines himself as such. If he sees himself as selfish, that will have an effect on every one of his actions, as well as the intentions behind them.

I do not agree with him at all. I find Edward to be one of the most selfless characters in existance. He is just blind to any goodness in him because he loathes what he is. But, I just thought I would throw that angle in to the conversation.

Let me see where you might be taking this, if a person does somethinng that he thinks is bad and finds fault within himself for doing it. Does this action them become bad because of what the person who did thinks? or are we just dealing with someone who just blames every bad thing that happens on himself, and is so paranoid that he can not cope with those feelings.

[Jazz Girl]

Well, like I said, it is my husband's theory, so I am just the messenger. But, as we discussed it, it is Edward's opinion that he is selfish and his actions are selfish, so they are selfish. It is just how Edward sees himself that defines his actions.

[diane771]

Well, like I said, it is my husband's theory, so I am just the message. But, as we discussed it, it is Edward's opinion that he is selfish and his actions are selfish, so they are selfish. It is just how Edward sees himself that defines his actions.

But don't you say to your husband well lets say he likes football loves the game, tosses the ball with his friends on the weekend, but he is just sucks at it. Its his opinion that he is good, and he can throw a football 50 yards, he sees himself on the screen during football season. But that is not reality. The reality is that he can't play no matter how good he thinks he is, football just isn't him. So since he believes this as in your reference to Edward as being selfish, no matter how hard your husband trys he will not be a football player and no matter what Edward thinks of himself he wasn't selfish. And please I just used your husband and football as an example because for all I know he could be in the NFL.
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[Jazz Girl]

No, I agree with you completely. And, I have had this debate with my hubs. Just because Edward sees himself as selfish does not make it so, no matter how hard he wants to believe it. As I said, in my mind, Edward is quite possibly the single most selfless character I have ever encountered. But, I think in my hubs mind, perception is reality, or at least a significat part of it. I love the football analogy, actually, because it is so true. American Idol is another great one. How many of those people that the feature in the opening rounds who all suck beyond the telling of it think they are the next (insert name of favorite singer here), when in reality they sound like a cat stuck in a garbage disposal. Just because they believe they can sing does not make it so.

But, in speaking about Edward, I think he gives Edward too much credit in DHN for being honest with himself, or understanding his own motivations. Throughout, Edward convinces himself that staying with Bella is the most selfish thing he can do, where leaving is the selfless thing to do. So, in staying with her, he is being selfish.

But, just as Jacob's thoughts about himself in Being Jacob Black are not perhaps the best and most clear, neither are Edward's thoughts about himself in DHN. What we read of their motivations and thoughts is being colored by their perspectives and prejudices. So, to take Edward's word, particularly about himself, in DHN as gospel I think is a mistake because we all know just how skewed Edward's view of himself truly is.

[diane771]

Well since Edward had so little interaction with humans, and Carlisle trying to set him up with a mate failed . Edward had to be one of the most lonely person around. He couldn't tell a human or even get close to a human. He cold read all the vampire mind. Off subjectI can see him and Alice playing Chess they have to have that in one of the movies So his people skills and relating to another was most likely difficult for him. Once Bella turned it was like they were together always. So Edward leaning on the side of caution is just part of his nature, like he is afraid to make the wrong move. He never had anything like this so Edward is in all things an over thinker, but then Bella came into his life can you imagine how his brain must have been spinning.?

[vampirenerd]

Caryn, I actually think I see where your husband is coming from. I don't think I agree with it but if I understand correctly what he is saying is that: if Edward sees himself as selfish, his actions may become (subconciously) selfish. I also, believe that perception is a big part of reality. What you believe to be true, whether or not it is, is what you will react to.

But, in speaking about Edward, I think he gives Edward too much credit in DHN for being honest with himself, or understanding his own motivations. Throughout, Edward convinces himself that staying with Bella is the most selfish thing he can do, where leaving is the selfless thing to do. So, in staying with her, he is being selfish.

Edward believes that he is putting Bella's life into more danger by being with her. I might could agree that while he was with Bella he was being selfish but I don't see him leaving as selfish. He was doing it all for her b/c he loved her and wanted to keep her safe.

[Asheleyo]

Ok, so I just wanted to reiterate that I don't actually think Edward is selfish through and through. I just think that every choice people make has some selfish and selfless motivations intertwined.

But anyway, I came up with an interesting example. From the text:

"But I'm not saying goodbye," I pointed out.
"Don't you see? That's what proves me right. I care the most, because if I can do it"--he shook his head, seeming to struggle with the thought--"if leaving is the right thing to do, then I'll hurt myself to keep from hurting you, to keep you safe."
I glared. "And you don't think I would do the same?"
"You'd never have to make the choice."

I can see an easy argument for Edward being inadvertently selfish here. Yes, it is a selfless thing to hurt yourself to spare another, but the fact that he refuses to allow Bella that choice is selfish. Instead of feeling like she can have any control over the situation, she has to live with the fact that she is causing him to hurt himself for her. But she's not allowed to return the favor, to show how much he means to her. He gets to be the martyr and she just has to live with the consequences. I thought this was a nice passage to illustrate their relationship.

[Dovrebanen]

"But I'm not saying goodbye," I pointed out.
"Don't you see? That's what proves me right. I care the most, because if I can do it"--he shook his head, seeming to struggle with the thought--"if leaving is the right thing to do, then I'll hurt myself to keep from hurting you, to keep you safe."
I glared. "And you don't think I would do the same?"
"You'd never have to make the choice."

I can see an easy argument for Edward being inadvertently selfish here. Yes, it is a selfless thing to hurt yourself to spare another, but the fact that he refuses to allow Bella that choice is selfish. Instead of feeling like she can have any control over the situation, she has to live with the fact that she is causing him to hurt himself for her. But she's not allowed to return the favor, to show how much he means to her. He gets to be the martyr and she just has to live with the consequences. I thought this was a nice passage to illustrate their relationship.

I really should be in bed by now..So sorry if this post doesn't make any sense.
Edward is not selfish in saying that she would never have to make that choice, IMO. It is the truth, pure and simple. She is not hurting him in any way. She is not putting him in danger just purely by being who she is. She hasn't brought dangerous vampires into his life. That is why Edward has to make that choice, not Bella. Edward would leave her if he had to, which is something Bella would never have to worry about. He allows her to return the favor, it's just that she will never have to. But he is forced to make a choice like that because he sees it as his reponsibility to make her safe again.
I will say though that he is wrong in saying that he cares the most. He clearly at that point didn't understand how much he meant to her.

[Asheleyo]

Actually, she is causing him pain. Just by being near him, she's making his thirst so strong it hurts. And she does this every time, without question.

Also, he isn't forced to make that decision. He's forcing Bella to never make that decision. Just because he feels it's his responsibility does not mean that it really is. She knows that she's a huge temptation for him, and she could leave and let him live pain-free. But he refuses to give her that option.

[diane771]

Actually, she is causing him pain. Just by being near him, she's making his thirst so strong it hurts. And she does this every time, without question.

Also, he isn't forced to make that decision. He's forcing Bella to never make that decision. Just because he feels it's his responsibility does not mean that it really is. She knows that she's a huge temptation for him, and she could leave and let him live pain-free. But he refuses to give her that option.

I am not understanding what you are trying to say. Bella is causing Edward pain. Edward is willing to be in pain for her, but Edward is not willing to let Bella in pain and you still have a problem with this? This is how I think Edward saw it. There are a lot of things in life that Edward could not control when he was around Bella, so it would not have made a difference if he talked to her, he had to leave at that point and would have made it worse, because instead of Bella moving on with her life or trying at least to, she would be waiting for him to come back and he didn't want her to do that in case someone came along that she could love and marry and have kids with.