Edward and Bella 2

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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:22 pm

Bella has a self, for sure. She has a mind of her own, for sure. But she doesn't have a very strong sense of it, that's what I'm saying. She doesn't have that many values and ideas that aren't centered on her relationships with others and are, instead of on herself. She goes from taking care of Renee all the time straight into this all consuming relationship with Edward.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby Alphie » Sat Aug 22, 2009 8:52 pm

Couple of things -

I wish everyone here could have heard Pel's presentation on "Bella Swan: Nobody's Wilting Parrot Tulip" that she gave in Summer School for Forks. She points out that Bella is a strong woman with definition. Consider that at age 17 she up and changed her whole life for her mother. How many 17 year olds do you know would feel okay about moving so far away to a place they don't really want to go just so that their mothers could do what she needed to do for a while? Consider that Bella has to be brave to hang out with vampire and werewolves on a daily basis. And I don't think all of the situations that she ended up in as a "damsel in distress" were intentional. As it was pointed out, she didn't know that there would be rapists in PA. And I don't think she really meant to kill herself by cliff diving. She did that because it was dangerous... like the motorcycle. It was after she was in the water and being pulled under that she realized how very stupid her decision to jump had been. So I don't think Bella is a weak as everyone thinks she is.

Second of all, it keeps being brought up that Bella really wasn't Bella when Edward left her. I went through a divorce about a year and a half ago and for sevearl months there after I literally was in a "haze" or a "fog" of life. You can ask Pel about it and she will totally back me up. I call it my haze of divorce phase where I had to completely figure out what life was without that missing piece of the puzzle. Bella and Edward weren't married, so my example may be a bit more extreme, but I think it makes the point. Did I know exactly who I was in those few months? Not really. Did Bella? Nope. I can relate to those blank pages in New Moon where she went through the motions of life but she really didn't live because I was there, too. And I think that Bella would have figured out life without Edward and would have eventually made some happiness for herself. But in the end, Edward did come back into her life. So we will never really know.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Sun Aug 23, 2009 1:42 am

I don't think your analogy is extreme at all, and I'm so sorry you had to deal with that. My heart goes out to you. It seems that heartache is one of the things we women have in common at any age. ;)

Bella is brave. Bella is selfless. Bella completely and totally defines herself through other relationships. Bella left for Forks because it was best for her mom. Interestingly enough, Bella maintains some semblance of an individual identity apart from Edward throughout Twilight. But her every decision, the only reason she ever stands up for something is for Edward, or her relationship with Edward.

If Bella had a strong sense of who she was without being defined by someone else, I argue that she would not have had quite the collapse she did. She would have collapsed, and quite probably been in a "fog" like you were, Alphie. But she would have had something in and of herself to stand on. She doesn't have that, that I see anywhere in the books.

It's hardly her fault though. She was never given the security that a child needs to develop a sense of who they are.

I'm not sure it counts as bravery if you lack fear in the first place...
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby The Dark Knight » Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:38 am

Alphie wrote:Couple of things -

I wish everyone here could have heard Pel's presentation on "Bella Swan: Nobody's Wilting Parrot Tulip" that she gave in Summer School for Forks. She points out that Bella is a strong woman with definition. Consider that at age 17 she up and changed her whole life for her mother. How many 17 year olds do you know would feel okay about moving so far away to a place they don't really want to go just so that their mothers could do what she needed to do for a while? Consider that Bella has to be brave to hang out with vampire and werewolves on a daily basis. And I don't think all of the situations that she ended up in as a "damsel in distress" were intentional. As it was pointed out, she didn't know that there would be rapists in PA. And I don't think she really meant to kill herself by cliff diving. She did that because it was dangerous... like the motorcycle. It was after she was in the water and being pulled under that she realized how very stupid her decision to jump had been. So I don't think Bella is a weak as everyone thinks she is.

Second of all, it keeps being brought up that Bella really wasn't Bella when Edward left her. I went through a divorce about a year and a half ago and for sevearl months there after I literally was in a "haze" or a "fog" of life. You can ask Pel about it and she will totally back me up. I call it my haze of divorce phase where I had to completely figure out what life was without that missing piece of the puzzle. Bella and Edward weren't married, so my example may be a bit more extreme, but I think it makes the point. Did I know exactly who I was in those few months? Not really. Did Bella? Nope. I can relate to those blank pages in New Moon where she went through the motions of life but she really didn't live because I was there, too. And I think that Bella would have figured out life without Edward and would have eventually made some happiness for herself. But in the end, Edward did come back into her life. So we will never really know.


If I may add more to how strong Bella is likely to be, I posted this on the Bella thread too, She is a product of the Scottsdale School system, They eat the 90210 girls for lunch. There is no way in my mind that she is not the most dangerous girl in Forks HS. Even being shy she would have to become leathal just to survive.

Depression is a nasty creature that will if left un-check destroy you for as long as you let it. It is also a natural defense to slip away for a while to heal. I don't see anything wrong with Bella curling up and dieing inside till she decides it OK to crawl out of her self made cave.

I am sorry for your pain as well, never an easy thing to have to go through. Glad your back and posting.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby Angelvamp » Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:25 am

After reading all the posts, I have to agree with holdingoutforjacob. Bella defines herself by her relationships solely. All her motivations have direct ties to what she thinks others want, not necessarily what she wants. I really don't see Bella as a strong person or a very good role model. And I think that she is literally a "damsel in distress", not figuratively, as is mostly the case today.

I think the same thing could be said about Edward, though (well, except for the damsel part :) ). It seems that all his motivations were tied to his perception of what others want. Before Bella, it was Carlisle.

I'm sorry too, Alphie, that you had to go through that. Glad you're here among other survivors. :)
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby una » Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:27 pm

Interesting point. Many people feel they are defined by their relationships, not necessarily by their own merits. It is fascinating to read the posts in the Edward and Bella threads and then read the posts in here regarding the nature/personalities of Bella and Edward. In my opinion, the character of a person is defined by how they treat others, not necessarily how they appear. Dealing with all the fears between Bella and Edward, there was a deep loyalty and love. And if we are defining Bella as by her relationships, how is she a "damsel in distress" when dealing with Charlie or Renee? Or Mike or Tyler for that matter? I saw Bella always fighting for Edward, fighting to convince them that what they had was real, long term. She may make decisions that put her in dangerous situations, but when it comes to defining her by her actions in a relationship, I saw her as a warrior. Hence, when Edward leaves, her identity is gone with him. I related to Bella in that situation because when I lost my first love, I was devastated. Out of the blue, he ended things with me. For months, I was seriously lost in myself, who was I? What did I want? What went wrong? What was wrong with me? Where did things change and I didn't see it? That relationship defined her and when it was gone, she didn't know how to function or be herself because it (to her) felt like she was a stranger now in her own skin.

Alphie glad you are back with us and hope your healing continues!
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby The Dark Knight » Mon Aug 24, 2009 4:56 pm

una wrote:Interesting point. Many people feel they are defined by their relationships, not necessarily by their own merits. It is fascinating to read the posts in the Edward and Bella threads and then read the posts in here regarding the nature/personalities of Bella and Edward. In my opinion, the character of a person is defined by how they treat others, not necessarily how they appear. Dealing with all the fears between Bella and Edward, there was a deep loyalty and love. And if we are defining Bella as by her relationships, how is she a "damsel in distress" when dealing with Charlie or Renee? Or Mike or Tyler for that matter? I saw Bella always fighting for Edward, fighting to convince them that what they had was real, long term. She may make decisions that put her in dangerous situations, but when it comes to defining her by her actions in a relationship, I saw her as a warrior. Hence, when Edward leaves, her identity is gone with him. I related to Bella in that situation because when I lost my first love, I was devastated. Out of the blue, he ended things with me. For months, I was seriously lost in myself, who was I? What did I want? What went wrong? What was wrong with me? Where did things change and I didn't see it? That relationship defined her and when it was gone, she didn't know how to function or be herself because it (to her) felt like she was a stranger now in her own skin.

Alphie glad you are back with us and hope your healing continues!


In th ecase of Renee and Charlie her role is care taker...as for the boys at Forks High school she is the object desire...we have many relationships and their idendentity is base on how it needs to be...Such is life.

Another point, to why She falls apart. her time at the hags of Scottsdale is they stripped her of self confidence. One of those bi-products of harsh social structures...any thoughts?
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby una » Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:23 pm

DarkKnight, it seems you asked this question on the Bella thread, and I think that is where this discussion belongs as it relates solely to Bella and not Bell and Edward together. I'll answer it there.

I think Bella partly defined herself with Edward in mind, hence her loss of self in New Moon. However, it does not seem that Edward defined himself with Bella, per say. With the nature of vampires in this mythology, Bella became a part of Edward. It seems in Breaking Dawn, I got a better sense of the bond between vampire mates when Bella was turned and spending those first few moments with Edward in the forest. They became almost extensions of each other...like the theory of a soul meld. How they can become lost in each other with no regards to the outside world.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby The Dark Knight » Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:41 pm

Ok
so we believe that both Edward and Bella define themselves with the other in mind. So how does Edward Deal with the third wheel, Jacob? I know this part is speculation and opinions so run with it. What are the inner thougthts and feeling you think are in play? How does he deal with Jacob who he knows full well has designs for Bella?
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby Angelvamp » Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:32 am

I'm not sure that Jacob is all that important to Edward, except that he is important to Bella. It's really all up to her anyway. Her decisions and feelings are what's important to Edward, not Jacob's. So what if Jacob has the hots for her? If Bella doesn't choose him and keeps choosing Edward, I don't think it matters to him much. The only thing that he seems concerned with is her safety around him, physically as well as emotionally, because such strong feelings are often hard to control. Even when you don't explode into a wolf when you're upset.
But even if she did run off with Jacob, I think part of Edward would feel relieved that she would get to be a human and live out her life like he thinks she should. He never thought that he deserved her, because of what he is. And also, Edward knew about Jacob's nervousness regarding imprinting. He knew it may only be a matter of time before Jacob would leave Bella for his imprintee, then he could slide in and stake his claim.
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