Rosalie Hale

[holdingoutforjacob]

Holding out for Jacob-

I understand why you think that. I definitely don't think Edward was ever Rosalie's biggest fan. Most of the time he didn't seem to care for her. And, during BD, he seemed very unhappy with her, and rightly so, for interfering with the pregnancy and hoping Bella would die so that she could have the baby (which we pretty much know from Jacob's book, if anyone questions this, please find Jazz Girl's recent post where she quoted the exact parts). But, just as he would hear her thoughts that she wanted Bella to die so she could get the baby, he could probably also tell that she wanted to be a mother and would try to take care of the baby. Now, I agree with you that she probably wouldn't actually be a very good mother. Still, Edward would know that Rosalie would try. When Edward was fighting to save Bella and believed it was a strong possibility she would die, he let Rosalie take the baby. He could have said no, or told Jasper or someone else to take the baby if he really did not want Rosalie near her. And, all of the Cullens live together--all of them would be part of Renesmee's life. I think no matter who Edward left her with, both Esme and Rosalie would be the most involved, including if he specifically left her with Esme. I don't see Esme physically preventing Rosalie from caring for Renesmee.

You might be right. But knowing Edward's character, he wouldn't let Rose have that baby, no matter what. I don't think he was thinking about it when he handed her off to Rose in BD, I think he just needed to get her out of his hands so he could focus on Bella. I can't see him giving her what she wants most, after Bella's dead, if anything out of revenge.

[chowzinha]

Chowzinha-

I'm interpreting that quote as Rosalie did want Bella to die, not just that she didn't care whether Bella lived or died. This part in particular:

Huh. I wouldn't have thought the ice-cold Barbie would have a maternal side. So much for protecting Bella - Rosalie'd probably jam the tube down Bella's throat herself.
Edward's mouth mashed into a hard line, and I knew I was right again." (BD, p 240).

Rosalie would jam the tube down Bella's throat herself->Rosalie would kill Bella herself.

Now, I don't think Rosalie really would try to kill Bella. Obviously, Edward would stop her if she tried. But, I do interpret that as Rosalie was hoping Bella would die and she would get the baby.

Even if you're right, whether Rosalie liked or disliked Bella, I don't think it's OK to not care whether the love of your brother's life lives or dies. Even if you really can't stand your sister-in-law, do you ever really not care if they live? Do you not care at all how much it would hurt your brother? This is part of why I don't like Rosalie. She is so selfish, she doesn't even care about her brother's happiness. I don't care if she likes Bella. I don't like Bella a lot of the time. But to want Bella dead is horrible. To be willing to sacrifice Bella and Edward's happiness just to get her hands on a baby is horrible. Rosalie knew what losing Bella would do to Edward. She knew last time she told Edward Bella was dead (in NM), Edward tried to get himself killed.

You see, my deepest insight on Rose is exactly at the same line you pointed out! The only difference is that I read as "if it ever came down to having to choose between Bella or the baby..." You know what I mean? As in, Rosalie would jam the tube down Bella's throat herself if it was ever necessary to do so in order to keep the baby alive.

The other part I pointed out was just to say that I completely agree. For me, it isn't a question of starting to hate her because she is so extremely selfish. You touched on something I was never able to, because I like Rose. The truth is that this attitude she has towards Bella (and anyone else), makes Rose such an interesting character for me. It kind of makes her deep (as oppose to what Edward says about her), because her motives are so obscure, and digging it is just so much fun!

[holdingoutforjacob]

Hmm, it's interesting that you see it that way, since I see it the opposite. I see Rosalie's intentions and motivations loud and clear. What makes her interesting to me is that those motivations are so dark, so selfish. Not necessarily deep, to me, but interesting.

I think Rosalie is the complete opposite of, of all people, Seth. Seth is completely good, completely motivated by wanting to do the right thing and help everyone. Rosalie is the opposite. However, Seth, while adorable, is actually kind of boring to me, because he's too good to be interesting.

[jenmick2]

I never got the feeling that Rose accepted Bella's plea for help with the hopes or wish that she would die and the baby would be hers. I took it as Rose understood what it was like to want a baby and she felt she owed Bella to help side with/protect Bella and the baby.

[Jazz Girl]

Chowzinha-

I'm interpreting that quote as Rosalie did want Bella to die, not just that she didn't care whether Bella lived or died. This part in particular:

Huh. I wouldn't have thought the ice-cold Barbie would have a maternal side. So much for protecting Bella - Rosalie'd probably jam the tube down Bella's throat herself.
Edward's mouth mashed into a hard line, and I knew I was right again." (BD, p 240).

Rosalie would jam the tube down Bella's throat herself->Rosalie would kill Bella herself.

Now, I don't think Rosalie really would try to kill Bella. Obviously, Edward would stop her if she tried. But, I do interpret that as Rosalie was hoping Bella would die and she would get the baby.

Even if you're right, whether Rosalie liked or disliked Bella, I don't think it's OK to not care whether the love of your brother's life lives or dies. Even if you really can't stand your sister-in-law, do you ever really not care if they live? Do you not care at all how much it would hurt your brother? This is part of why I don't like Rosalie. She is so selfish, she doesn't even care about her brother's happiness. I don't care if she likes Bella. I don't like Bella a lot of the time. But to want Bella dead is horrible. To be willing to sacrifice Bella and Edward's happiness just to get her hands on a baby is horrible. Rosalie knew what losing Bella would do to Edward. She knew last time she told Edward Bella was dead (in NM), Edward tried to get himself killed.

Chowzinha, thanks for pulling up the quote. It makes it easier to reference.

EclipseRoxI actually interpret it differently as well. I don't think Rose would deliberately cause Bella's death. But, if it came down to it, Rose would choose the baby over Bella, even if Bella changed her mind about a course of action. For instance, hypothetically speaking, let's say Bella changed her mind and wanted to allow Carlisle to perform the abortion, I think Rose would have stood in the way, acted to prevent it. Worst case scenario that I see here is Rose actually taking the baby out herself, a sort of vampire c-section if you will. She would do this knowing that Edward and Carlisle might be able to save her through transforming her, since that had always been the plan. But, in the case of the tube, it would be a matter of forcing Bella to do what Rose thought was best for the baby, not deliberately attempting to kill her so that she could keep the baby. As I said before, Rose knows as long as the baby is kept in the family, she will get to play mom.

You might be right. But knowing Edward's character, he wouldn't let Rose have that baby, no matter what. I don't think he was thinking about it when he handed her off to Rose in BD, I think he just needed to get her out of his hands so he could focus on Bella. I can't see him giving her what she wants most, after Bella's dead, if anything out of revenge.

I agree and disagree here, HoldingOutForJacob. I think you are absolutely right in what you said about him handing the baby to Rose. He didn't care if he handed her off to the Volturi in that moment. He was way to focused on saving Bella. But, once that moment passed and Bella was safe(r), he said he'd like to throttle them both. Now, I know there isn't really a direct quote as to why, though we do get a brief glimpse of Edward's later ire over Jacob's "claiming" Ness (ie putting restrictions on Bella's interacting, fighting with Rose over her), but I always thougth maybe he was a little pissed at both Jake and Rose for claiming her before Bella even had a chance to get to know her, before he had a chance to bond with her. We know that Edward held Ness, sang to her in the office while Bella recuperated. But, I can completely see Rose coming in and taking Ness to feed her, change her etc, rather than maybe bringing Edward the things he needed to do that himself while watching over Bella. I know it's a hell of an assumption, but I totally saw Rose putting herself in the place of mom since Bella couldn't.

And, as far as the revenge motive, I know you think I have a rose-colored-glasses view of Edward, but I don't think his mind would go that far with Rose. Again, I find his feelings toward her as almost completely indifferent outside of the "I love her because she's family" realm. So, I don't see him as even concerning himself that far with trying to get that kind of revenge, especially if Bella were to die. He'd make sure the rest of the family cares for Ness, bury his wife and head for the closed airport and quickest flight to Italy. End of story. I don't think Rose would even cross his mind.

[holdingoutforjacob]

I'm going to ignore the unfairness to Jacob there. Not in what you said, but in Edward's reaction. Ok no I"m not. Jake couldn't HELP claiming her!!! Rosalie could!!!! No fair!! Ok I"m done being a silly fan girl now I promise.

I do NOT think you have a rose colored view of Edward. I think you understand his actions deeper than I do, admittedly, and I think you defend him because he's your favorite character, but I think you're also very good about acknowledging when it's easy for other to interpret him differently than you do. I understand because I totally do the same with Jacob - defend his actions without saying they aren't wrong. It gets misunderstood a lot.

I think you could be right about him not caring about whether or not Rosalie gets her. BUT I still think my thesis is just as likely. I just don't see him ignoring the fact that even though Rose knew it was killing Bella, she not only supported it but made it impossible for any of the others to try to talk to Bella about any other options.

I also do NOT see Jacob letting her stay with Rosalie. I think he would have fought for her like no other, and, honestly, I think Edward might have backed him.

And that's really the thing. I don't think anyone would have forced Bella to abort the baby, even if given the opportunity, if it wasn't what she wanted. We're talking about really GOOD people here. But I do think that between Edward, Jacob, Carlisle, and Alice, there could have been SOME compromise of some sort reached. Or at least Bella's health could have been put to the forefront, and complications could be solved without Rosalie demanding that everyone always focus on the health of the baby above Bella. I think that, if anyone, Rosalie really took away options in this situation.

[eclipserox]

Jazz Girl-
I agree that Edward would not seek revenge on Rosalie by making sure she didn't get the baby. He is not a very vengeful person. And, even though he was fully aware of Rosalie's part in it, he really tends to take most of the blame for anything that hurts Bella on himself. I think if the birth killed Bella, he would be so consumed with guilt for impregnating her, that it wouldn't even cross his mind to punish Rosalie by making sure she didn't get the baby.

Holding out for Jacob-
I disagree. First of all, I don't think there is any question of Jacob "letting" her stay with Rosalie. He imprinted on her and has a vested interest in what happens to her, but she is Edward and Bella's baby and the Cullens would naturally and legally get custody of her. It's just not up to Jacob. If he did try to fight them and take Renesmee forcefully, I think a whole house of vampires would be able to stop him. There's no way Rosalie and Emmet, or Esme and Carlisle for that matter, would just let Jacob take off with their niece/granddaughter. As far as Edward, if he were given a few weeks to adjust, you might be right that he would side with Jacob, but initially it bothered him a little that Jacob had imprinted on his baby. I think initially he would be more comfortable leaving her with his family. And, it really does make more sense to leave her with the family. Obviously, when Bella made plans for Renesmee if she and Edward died, she planned on giving her to Jacob...but we don't know if Edward would have made the same plan. He was OK with it, but I still tend to think he would feel more comfortable leaving her with his family until she was a little older.

[holdingoutforjacob]

^^^ Jacob has as much claim to her as Rosalie. It would depend on who Edward felt comfortable leaving her with, even legally.

[eclipserox]

No. If Edward gave custody to Jacob and if Jacob were an adult, it would be one thing. But if Edward didn't specify and just left, went to Italy to die, no Jacob would not have as much claim to her as anybody. A court would likely give custody of Renesmee to Esme and Carlisle (grandparents) and since all of the Cullens live together, Rosalie would have access. Granted, it probably wouldn't go to a court due to the odd circumstances and Renesmee's abnormal intelligence and growth. They would probably settle it on their own--with the vampires not letting Jacob just take Renesmee. I don't think anyone would try to prevent Jacob from being part of her life, but why would anyone give Edward and Bella's child to Jacob? He's not related to her. He's not godparent or anything. He would have absolutely no claim to her unless Edward specified that he did. And even if Edward did want to legally give Jacob custody, legally you can't give custody of a baby to a 17 year old minor child.

[Jazz Girl]

As far as Edward, if he were given a few weeks to adjust, you might be right that he would side with Jacob, but initially it bothered him a little that Jacob had imprinted on his baby. I think initially he would be more comfortable leaving her with his family.

I think this is the crux of the argument right here. When we are talking about Edward's initial reaction vs the position he comes to hold once the stress Ness' birth and Bella's transformation are passed. Edward, better than anyone, understood exactly the power of Jacob's imprinting, what it meant. But, just like Bella, it still has to rankle a brand new parent that there is already someone out there who is laying claim to your brand new child, questioning your decisions and taking a part of that caretaker role. It's as Bella says, "he was delivering my lines." It is something that only parents will understand. Yes, it is absolutely wonderful to have a large extended family and friends who love and care for your child, help to keep them safe and raise them to be a good person with lots of love and life experiences. But, when it comes down to the nitty gritty, that is your child and no one else has a stronger bond than that. Imprinted shapeshifters and child-desperate vampires be damned!!

HoldingOutFor Jacob, I completely agree with you in that Jacob did have a sort of "claim" on Ness (I use that because I can't think of a better word). And, I think his was much more legitimate than Rose's, even if she is family. But, I think what it comes down to is that Edward absolutely has the right to be pissed at both of them. He is fighting for Bella's (Ness' mother's) life, trying to keep her alive to be able to mother her daughter. And, where are Jake and Rose? Downstairs fighting over Ness like she's a new toy given to brother and sister. Yes, someone needed to be caring for her. But, it just seems to me that both of them were so completely selfish and inconsiderate in these moments that it snaps my teeth together. This, together again with that idea of anyone else trying to interupt that bond between parent and child and I wouldn't have blamed Edward if he'd b#(@* slapped them both!!

And, it really does make more sense to leave her with the family. Obviously, when Bella made plans for Renesmee if she and Edward died, she planned on giving her to Jacob...but we don't know if Edward would have made the same plan. He was OK with it, but I still tend to think he would feel more comfortable leaving her with his family until she was a little older.

Again, we have to separate the initial reaction from the position he came to hold. I think, once Bella and he are parenting together and he has time to adjust to Jacob's imprinting, there was no way Edward would argue that Jacob wasn't the perfect guardian for Ness. Yes, he would absolutely still want her to see the family, stay with them if possible, but in this case, they fully expected the whole family to be killed right along with them. So, Jacob is the best and only option.

I really didn't mean that last part to come across as harsh toward Jacob as it reads. I just can't think of a better way to state it.