Edward and Bella 2

[diane771]

I don't think Edward believed Bella didn't love him, but I know from Midnight Sun and from SM that he did think she couldn't possibly love him as much as he loved her.

On the other stuff, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't think you're getting that selfishness can come in different degrees. And I'm playing off of a much more subtle degree of it. I don't think Edward is at his core selfish at all, but there is a small amount of it that played into his actions. I do think you can be selfish without realizing it, and I think that's what happened. I don't think it was his main motivating factor at all. But I don't agree that he understood Bella completely at that point and I do think he mitigated her love for him. If he had known that pain and suffering she would go through once he left, I don't think he would have left, as is evident by his extreme guilt every time someone mentions the time that he was away and what it did to her. And whether he thought about her love for him not being as strong as a reason to leave or not, it still played into his actions. He left for her to have a normal life and be safe and free from pain. But there's nothing normal about a zombie. And there's nothing painfree about losing your true love. He wouldn't stay with her after coming back from Italy if he didn't realize how much of a mistake it was to leave in the first place. He was letting his near sense of omniscience cloud his judgment.

Well, this was Edward's and Bella's first love and mistakes are to be expected. But Where is the selfishness in Edward as far a Bella is, that is what I have been asking and I am not getting anywhere with you , I give reason for actions but you say selfishness. How could leaving Bella when he loved her so much be selfish. How could wanting to protect her be selfish, how could not realizing how deep her feeling and yours be selfish, maybe a mistake but certainly not selfish. you definately got my interest by your word saying subtle degree of it. Please you can't say that and not back it up. And to say something that broad would encompass everyone, and so that is just a human trait and not something abnormal in Edward and Bella's
relationship. Have you ever broken up with anyone that you loved, and for reasons that at the time seemed to be right. and then realized that it was a mistake. I can't see anyone saying that never happened to them . And when you realize that it was a mistake you try and make it right . If they still love you, and if its meant to be then it will work out. But you are putting Edward to a higher standard to anyone else, and to me that just is not being open minded, and seeing the whole picture and not just the leaving. You are looking only from Bella's point of view, and I am looking at it through both points and how relationships do break up, and it feel like your world is ending, and yet things will work out. So I guess if you want to disagree with me, that's cool but don't hold Edward to a higher standard just because you didn't agree to his leaving. Look at it through his eyes. and his torment when he came back, and Bella's. Its a part that makes a relationship solid not that every relationship has to, but this is not your average relationship.

[Asheleyo]

Well, this was Edward's and Bella's first love and mistakes are to be expected. But Where is the selfishness in Edward as far a Bella is, that is what I have been asking and I am not getting anywhere with you , I give reason for actions but you say selfishness. How could leaving Bella when he loved her so much be selfish. How could wanting to protect her be selfish, how could not realizing how deep her feeling and yours be selfish, maybe a mistake but certainly not selfish. you definately got my interest by your word saying subtle degree of it. Please you can't say that and not back it up. And to say something that broad would encompass everyone, and so that is just a human trait and not something abnormal in Edward and Bella's
relationship. Have you ever broken up with anyone that you loved, and for reasons that at the time seemed to be right. and then realized that it was a mistake. I can't see anyone saying that never happened to them . And when you realize that it was a mistake you try and make it right . If they still love you, and if its meant to be then it will work out. But you are putting Edward to a higher standard to anyone else, and to me that just is not being open minded, and seeing the whole picture and not just the leaving. You are looking only from Bella's point of view, and I am looking at it through both points and how relationships do break up, and it feel like your world is ending, and yet things will work out. So I guess if you want to disagree with me, that's cool but don't hold Edward to a higher standard just because you didn't agree to his leaving. Look at it through his eyes. and his torment when he came back, and Bella's. Its a part that makes a relationship solid not that every relationship has to, but this is not your average relationship.

I don't know how to explain it any differently from how I first put it and how Mrs.Edward_Cullen<3 said it.

I don't hold Edward to a higher standard. I'm just trying to say that there was some selfish motivation. There always is in every person's choices, because somehow it comes back to what they could live with. Edward can't live with Bella being in pain. In essence, that is actually partly selfish. Edward believes his love is greater, which is a bit smug of him. If he were truly being totally selfless, he would do whatever Bella wants (like a wolf would for the one he imprinted on). But he, for good reason I know, chooses to leave because he can't live with any accidents that could occur with him around. Again, that's what HE can't live with, not what Bella can't live with. She would gladly endure pain to stay with him. If I cant explain it any better than that, then I guess we're doomed to misunderstand each other. Please understand that I'm not saying his selfishness is above and beyond any normal human's. I merely was stating that Edward is thinking about himself too, whether he realizes it or not. The fact that it is normal for humans only makes it more beautiful because he has thought himself to be so distant from his human beginnings, until his life with Bella. She brings out the human in him, the human behind the monster.

I am looking at both perspectives, not that anyone can be blamed for considering Bella's perspective more since we only truly see hers. I know that it takes more than most are willing to give to walk away from love. Edward is doing what he feels is best, I never said otherwise. I just said that it was a bit misguided, which is very true. And I know mistakes are made. But we're dissecting literature here too. It's not to be taken too personally. Life is about learning from your mistakes, and I think that Edward grows more in this book than he ever did in his existence.

[diane771]

Well, this was Edward's and Bella's first love and mistakes are to be expected. But Where is the selfishness in Edward as far a Bella is, that is what I have been asking and I am not getting anywhere with you , I give reason for actions but you say selfishness. How could leaving Bella when he loved her so much be selfish. How could wanting to protect her be selfish, how could not realizing how deep her feeling and yours be selfish, maybe a mistake but certainly not selfish. you definately got my interest by your word saying subtle degree of it. Please you can't say that and not back it up. And to say something that broad would encompass everyone, and so that is just a human trait and not something abnormal in Edward and Bella's
relationship. Have you ever broken up with anyone that you loved, and for reasons that at the time seemed to be right. and then realized that it was a mistake. I can't see anyone saying that never happened to them . And when you realize that it was a mistake you try and make it right . If they still love you, and if its meant to be then it will work out. But you are putting Edward to a higher standard to anyone else, and to me that just is not being open minded, and seeing the whole picture and not just the leaving. You are looking only from Bella's point of view, and I am looking at it through both points and how relationships do break up, and it feel like your world is ending, and yet things will work out. So I guess if you want to disagree with me, that's cool but don't hold Edward to a higher standard just because you didn't agree to his leaving. Look at it through his eyes. and his torment when he came back, and Bella's. Its a part that makes a relationship solid not that every relationship has to, but this is not your average relationship.

I don't know how to explain it any differently from how I first put it and how Mrs.Edward_Cullen<3 said it.

I don't hold Edward to a higher standard. I'm just trying to say that there was some selfish motivation. There always is in every person's choices, because somehow it comes back to what they could live with. Edward can't live with Bella being in pain. In essence, that is actually partly selfish. Edward believes his love is greater, which is a bit smug of him. If he were truly being totally selfless, he would do whatever Bella wants (like a wolf would for the one he imprinted on). But he, for good reason I know, chooses to leave because he can't live with any accidents that could occur with him around. Again, that's what HE can't live with, not what Bella can't live with. She would gladly endure pain to stay with him. If I cant explain it any better than that, then I guess we're doomed to misunderstand each other. Please understand that I'm not saying his selfishness is above and beyond any normal human's. I merely was stating that Edward is thinking about himself too, whether he realizes it or not. The fact that it is normal for humans only makes it more beautiful because he has thought himself to be so distant from his human beginnings, until his life with Bella. She brings out the human in him, the human behind the monster.

I am looking at both perspectives, not that anyone can be blamed for considering Bella's perspective more since we only truly see hers. I know that it takes more than most are willing to give to walk away from love. Edward is doing what he feels is best, I never said otherwise. I just said that it was a bit misguided, which is very true. And I know mistakes are made. But we're dissecting literature here too. It's not to be taken too personally. Life is about learning from your mistakes, and I think that Edward grows more in this book than he ever did in his existence.

Ok this is the meaning of selfish as in the dictionary and this is my problem maybe because you are not using the word correctly any way it says Selfish : Concerned Chiefly with one's own personal interest or pleasure
To me it does not apply to Edward when he left Bella, he was not think of himself at all and so the selfish word does not apply with that part. Maybe some other one might but I don't see how you can turn what the dictionary says and say that Edward was selfish in leaving Bella, He would have been selfish if he had stayed and possiblely put her in more danger. So maybe he did not handle it in the best way, but none can say that we all have acted perfectly. Edward was blinded by his love of Bella and made the choice, it might be the wrong choice but his actions in no way would be considered selfish, but completely the opposite. Now if there are other places that you can say he was selfish I am willing to go there and with an open mind and look at it but in the case of Edward leaving Bella it was not an action other than love. but that is the way I see it and that is the way I view selfishness and to me it does not apply here. But you have a right to get anything you want from the book and I would be open like I said if you could point another example of Edwards selfishness and I might agree.

[Dovrebanen]

I don't hold Edward to a higher standard. I'm just trying to say that there was some selfish motivation. There always is in every person's choices, because somehow it comes back to what they could live with. Edward can't live with Bella being in pain. In essence, that is actually partly selfish. Edward believes his love is greater, which is a bit smug of him. If he were truly being totally selfless, he would do whatever Bella wants (like a wolf would for the one he imprinted on). But he, for good reason I know, chooses to leave because he can't live with any accidents that could occur with him around. Again, that's what HE can't live with, not what Bella can't live with. She would gladly endure pain to stay with him. If I cant explain it any better than that, then I guess we're doomed to misunderstand each other. Please understand that I'm not saying his selfishness is above and beyond any normal human's. I merely was stating that Edward is thinking about himself too, whether he realizes it or not.

I have to agree with Diane on this one. I see Edward leaving as the most selfless act he ever made. He left with no regard for himself. He left for her. If he was selfish, he would have stayed. It made sense to stay. He loved her, she wanted him to stay...That was the easy way. But Edward didn't want that for her. He wanted her to live a full life, away from danger. To have all the opportunities that life can provide for a human woman. In my opinion, his main motivation is not what he can't live with, it is what's best for the one person that matters more to him than anyone else in the world.
I agree that he didn't take Bella's wants into consideration. But should he really be expected to? Bella clearly can't see the dangers connected with being with Edward. He just needs to touch her even the slightest and her heart starts pumping like crazy and she can't think straight. Edward was the one who always had to be the responsible one, and make the hard decision. He saw it as his decision to make because of the dangers that he brought into her life. He thought that if he left, she could forget about him and start living her life. He was willing to sacrifice his own happiness for hers. IMO, that is totally selfless.

So maybe he did not handle it in the best way, but none can say that we all have acted perfectly. Edward was blinded by his love of Bella and made the choice, it might be the wrong choice but his actions in no way would be considered selfish, but completely the opposite.

Agreed. Obviously things didn't work out the way he thought when he left. Bella was miserable. She would never have gotten completely past loosing him. And maybe he should have foreseen that. I know he felt that Bella's capacity to love wasn't as big as his own. And that the human memory was like a sieve; that she would forget him. Did he exhibit poor judgement? Yes. Was it selfish? In my opinion, no.

[vampirenerd]

[quote="Asheleyo"] If he were truly being totally selfless, he would do whatever Bella wants (like a wolf would for the one he imprinted on). But he, for good reason I know, chooses to leave because he can't live with any accidents that could occur with him around. Again, that's what HE can't live with, not what Bella can't live with. She would gladly endure pain to stay with him. quote]

This is a good point. I never really thought about it like that but I still don't think that you could call him being selfish. Like Diane put selfish is being "Concerned Chiefly with one's own personal interest or pleasure". While he was concerned with what was in his personal interest ie: not seeing Bella in pain, it definately wasn't for selfish reasons. You your self said that you don't think Edward realized he was being selfish and I agree with that. I also agree that selfishness comes in degrees. I just don't think selfish is the right word for what you're trying to imply. It's too strong of a word.

About another point you made. Edward did believe he loved Bella more than she loved him. He said and I believe some of the other vamps said, that it takes a lot to touch a vampire and change them so when they fall in love it's for good and the strongest love there is (that was TOTALLY paraphrased lol). Vampire love is something SO much more than human love, and while Bella's love for him was more than normal humans, Edward still is basing it on normal human love.

Ok, now I want to go listen to Vampire Love by Ash (random I know)

[Lunna-san]

Well, if I can give my 2 cents on this discussion, I agree with diane. Because we are not talking about here of a boyfriend who doesn't want to take the girlfriend to the cinema. It's Bella's life that it was on stake in there. Edward couldn't afford having accidents around because in one of them, Bella could be killed. And she could be killed because the Cullens, even being very civilizied, good hearted and everything, they are vampires. They are dangerous. Edward was dangerous to her. The fact that he can dominate the monster doesn't make him go away.

And I didn't agree with Edward's decision to leave too. He was mistaken in many levels. However, it was because he loved her so much that he couldn't just stay there and be a threat. See that the person you love is in danger again and again and do nothing. Stay and do as Bella asked it would have been easy. He just had to be arrogant enough to think that he wasn't dangerou and nothing happened. Jasper almost killed Bella and it was okay. Just a regular day in Bella's life. Being able to make difficult decisions that can make someone's life better is also an act of love. And she wasn't the only one who suffered.

[Mrs.Edward_Cullen<3]

Diane, I agree with you. But Ashleyo, I see your perspective and where you're getting your opinion of him. Yes, some of his actions end up being seen as selfish but truly they are self-less to a core. Just like his very visible self-less actions are. They are somewhat selfish. But Edward isn't neccesarily a selfish creature who doesn't see from other perspectives. In fact quite the opposite. He always tries to see the person's POV, it's just that his POV gets in the way of that. (His concern and love for Bella.)

[diane771]

OK I am going to try and end my opinion on selfishness. How selfish of me I will take Edward's selfishness over any man I ever dated and I refuse to give up number so don't even try And if definition of selfish isn't what the dictionary is thats cool, I make up my own words and put my meaning to them all the time, So I see an Impasse, wait let me look that up; a deadlock, sounds good to me, as I was saying we see the words differently or we could be worlds apart. you in the human and I am somewhere else, and you might not like Edward at all. But I don't see too much bad in him. When we see him going over board, I as a woman would rather have a man care that much, than someone who's first thought is himself, as a large majority of men do, excluding the men on our forum here. So I am now what can we talk about I am open we can even continue but its open to

[Dovrebanen]

Diane, I agree with you. But Ashleyo, I see your perspective and where you're getting your opinion of him. Yes, some of his actions end up being seen as selfish but truly they are self-less to a core. Just like his very visible self-less actions are. They are somewhat selfish. But Edward isn't neccesarily a selfish creature who doesn't see from other perspectives. In fact quite the opposite. He always tries to see the person's POV, it's just that his POV gets in the way of that. (His concern and love for Bella.)

People might see it as selfish that Edward left Bella in New Moon without taking her perspective into consideration. But that wasn't his intention at all, IMO. He wanted to do the very best he could for her. He gave her the ultimate gift he felt he could give her by leaving. He gave her a chance on a normal life, without dangers in it. And in order to give her that, he sacrificed his own happiness. He knew he would never be happy again without her, since she had irrevocably changed his entire existence. But he was willing to give it up for her. In my mind, that is as selfless as you get. And I am not sure I would have been able to make that kind of sacrifice. And we have to take into consideration that Edward honestly believed that he was doing the right thing. He believed that Bella could find happiness without him.

I like your point about his own POV getting in the way, MEC. I think that is so true. In Edward's mind, Bella's safety was first and foremost. It was his full time occupation to keep her safe. He would die for her. So I think he saw her perspective. But he couldn't make her points the deciding factor, because he knew that Bella wasn't seeing the dangers clearly enough. He had to take responsibility for the situation.

[Jazz Girl]

Hey all. Sorry, I have been travelling a lot for work and not able to post over the last few days. But, I wanted to jump in quickly. I hope you don't mind.

So, last night as I was reading through the last few pages of missed posts and IMing my husband at the same time, I actually IMd him about this discussion. Now, he has read all the novels each twice (He's a proud TwiGuy ) but his favorite of the works is DHN. And he takes much of it as the equivalent of gospel where Twilight is concerned. His contention (and yes this started a great debate) was that, despite his intentions, Edward was selfish because he saw himself as such. Regardless of how we or anyone else interprets his intentions, he saw every one of his actions as selfish and hurtful. Thus, he contends, Edward is a selfish being because he defines himself as such. If he sees himself as selfish, that will have an effect on every one of his actions, as well as the intentions behind them.

I do not agree with him at all. I find Edward to be one of the most selfless characters in existance. He is just blind to any goodness in him because he loathes what he is. But, I just thought I would throw that angle in to the conversation.