Edward Cullen #3

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Re: Edward Cullen #3

Post by eclipserox » Thu Jan 22, 2009 3:16 pm

Jazz Girl wrote:I apologize for interupting such a great discussion, but while FINALLY getting to read through the SM personal correspondance pages on the Lex blog, I came across something that really just stopped me in my tracks. SM was asked a question about the transformation process. In her reply, she indicates that multiple bites/injections of venom do not affect the transformation process, and in fact would make in more painful because of the higher concentration of venom burning it's way through the person's system. We know from BD that Edward not only injected a syringe full of his venom directly into Bella's heart, but also bit her at different pulse points along her body, sealing the venom in as he went. Following that logic, it could be said that Edward, in fact, transformed Bella in the most painful way possible. I have my own theories and beliefs as to why he went about it the way he did, and in no way do I think it was anything else than what he thought would be the best way to transform Bella. But, here's my question: Based on that assumption, do you think Edward would have done anything different if he'd known? How do you think Edward would have felt if he had understood the amount of pain Bella was in? And, does it in anyway change the way you view Bella's behavior during the transformation? I'll hold off on my opinions until later. Thanks.
I think Edward's only motivation for transforming Bella was to save her life. We know that he did not ever want to transform her. She wanted to be transformed, and he fought her on it and tried to put it off. When she was pregnant, she stopped asking to be transformed. We know that the pregnancy weakened her and quite possibly could have killed her. I think if Edward could have used his medical training to save her without transforming her, he would have. He couldn't. She would have died if he hadn't transformed her. I think that all of his decisions in transforming her were to do what was best for her, as always. I haven't read BD in quite awhile, so I may be forgetting some details, but I got the idea that the way he went about transforming her was intended to be less painful. If I remember correctly, that is why he insisted on using morphine even though they were in a hurry. I don't remember if he knew that injecting her with poison at various points would be more painful. I assume if he did, he thought the morphine would prevent any pain. I can't imagine him doing anything that would worsen the pain for Bella unless it was either 100% necessary to save her life or he really didn't know it was hurting her. Knowing that it was more painful, I have more respect for Bella in concealing her pain from Edward to save his feelings. I don't think Edward ever realized that Bella was lying about how much pain she was in. He often expected reactions/thoughts from her that were the opposite of what she actually did. He expected and feared the worst, so, based on their history of him not being able to figure her out completely, it's not that odd that he would be wrong and she experienced no pain. She was very careful not to mention the pain in front of him. I don't think Jasper was in the room until the moment Bella woke up. At which point, other emotions might have clouded her pain. Edward and Alice's excitement and anticipation, Carlisle's compassion, Bella's concern for Nessie. Edward may never have picked up on the pain that Jasper would have felt through Bella because of all the other emotions. And, if he did pick up on the pain, he may not know the origins. It could have been Edward's pain at possibly having hurt Bella. Another thought: Jasper sense EMOTIONS. Bella was feeling PHYSICAL pain, not necessarily emotional pain. She was emotionally worried about Nessie. Would Jasper even sense physical pain? I don't know that he would.

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Re: Edward Cullen #3

Post by CrazilyObsessed024 » Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:06 pm

Everyone has basically already said what i would have :D
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Re: Edward Cullen #3

Post by Kachiti » Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:31 pm

malaz wrote:I have a few theories about that as well. 1) He injected venom in as many places as possible to avoid any sudden death, consequently enough Bella was on her death bed. And he wouldn’t/couldn’t ever risk that therefore injected more venom than necessary or as much as necessary. Carlisle said that there are circumstances that venom can not even overcome - assuming Edward knows that very well as he was in the scene, the words would have lingered when it came time to save Bella. 2) We know that the more venom in the body and in main pulse points accelerates the transformation. Edward didn’t want Bella to hurt. . . ever, not even for three days - the idea would have tortured, plagued and ached him. . . Let alone him witnessing that. We know Bella’s transformation lasted a little bit over two days. So Edward was right, by injecting as much venom as necessary the transformation can be sped up 3) All of the above. The third one is the more accurate - to me - knowing the basis of it was the circumstances he was in and his concern for Bella.

No, I do not think Edward would have done anything different if he had known. When he more or less accepted the fact that Bella was going to hurt and bad, there wasn’t anything he could do about it - having experienced that pain beforehand. So in the best logic, having it hurt for as long as three days in slow, torturous amounts? Or have it in less than three days, with fast, torturous amounts? He was thinking for both of them, what was best for Bella - First. always first - and what would make him most comfortable - and the second choice clearly illustrates both desires.

Edward knows Bella very very well - and there is doubt in mind that he believed her when she lied about it. He took in all the most important facts. First was that Bella was so unnaturally still - too still for someone who is suffering from pain at it most extreme. Second, was that Bella never replied to his questions. . . Morphine, while it anesthetises you, it doesn’t make you unable to talk and hear. And we know Edward is very analytical - he was very well aware of how much she hurt but I think he was trying to believe her despite his doubts. I digress - as for his reaction. Just pure pure torture.
You took the words right out of my head. One thing thorough, I felt the bites were not so much to speed up the transformation as to keep her heart beating. That's why he injected her heart first,it was so weak that the vemon shocked her heart into beating. Nessie birth did a number her body, there was no way he could have saved her human body. She had lost to much blood and her spine was a goner.
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Re: Edward Cullen #3

Post by Amethyst1 » Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:21 pm

eclipserox wrote:And, if he did pick up on the pain, he may not know the origins. It could have been Edward's pain at possibly having hurt Bella. Another thought: Jasper sense EMOTIONS. Bella was feeling PHYSICAL pain, not necessarily emotional pain. She was emotionally worried about Nessie. Would Jasper even sense physical pain? I don't know that he would.
Pain is an emotion - whether it physical, emotional or mental - i don't think there's much of a distinction. It's like hearing your own thoughts in your mind as you think them and hearing your voice as you speak - both different but ultimately the same thing because you HEAR it. Pain, in whichever of the three (physical, emotional...etc..), you FEEL it - all the same just in effect of different things. Whether Jasper felt Bella's emotions or not is the not the case - I am not even sure Jasper was in Bella's presence during the transformation.

However, my point is Edward knew of Bella's pain. He's a smart man, no one can doubt that. EVEN if i was in his position, i would not have believed Bella. The thing is, you have to guess and check. And I feel Edward did that - he's very analytical, and aware of his surroundings and he's especially in tune with Bella regardless of her mental mute - he's aware of her every action, facial expression, etc. - wow that sounds a bit weird, but it's not like that. However, my point - venom is strong, and capable of evaporating blood - what would make Edward think it wouldn't get rid of the morphine? All i am saying is that those thoughts have occurred to Edward but despite it he wants to believe Bella.

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Re: Edward Cullen #3

Post by Heart_in_Hand » Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:38 pm

Jazz Girl wrote:Fantastic post, Heart_in_Hand. I agree with you 100%. I really attribute both Jasper's and Edward's natures much to the fact that they have such a unique experience of the world. They are, in a way, so much more vulnerable to it than those of us who walk blindly through it. Between the two of them they get a fuller, more visceral experience of what is going on the world round. And, because of their tendency to turn all things inward, to see them as a reflection of themselves, they are effected by it so much more deeply. I really see this as the root cause of why both of them are so hyperprotective of their partners. For Jasper, he's experienced the evil first hand and has finally found hope in Alice. Loosing that, loosing her, is incomprehensible to him. But, at least he has the comfort of knowing that, even where the most vile of things lurk, she isn't in all that much danger.
However, Edward is just doomed. It's almost a reverse of why I think Jasper was so overcome with bloodlust at the birthday party (not only was he dealing with his own cravings, but also the emotional reactions of 5 other vampires all desiring Bella's blood). Edward not only experiences his own thoughts and reactions and horrors at the world around him, but those of everyone else around him. It has to have a kind of magnifying power on the way even his massive vampire mind can process the information. He even says it does in the first pages of MS (talking about feeling double the thirst for another student because Jasper is dwelling on it so much). How then can he not take to heart all of those things two, or five, or ten, or one hundred fold?
Thank you Jazz Girl ! You totally get me! :P
Jazz Girl wrote: Based on that assumption, do you think Edward would have done anything different if he'd known? How do you think Edward would have felt if he had understood the amount of pain Bella was in? And, does it in anyway change the way you view Bella's behavior during the transformation?
I don't know that he would have done anything different if he had known that it was more painful for Bella to have more venom. Part of me wants to think maybe he would look at it as something like ripping off a bandage. He knew more venom would speed up the process, and while the initial pain would be greater, it is better to just get it over with quickly. But then, Edward never wants Bella to be any pain at all, so I wonder if he might have considered prolonging the pain if it would have been lessened. Basically what it all comes down to is: More pain for slightly less time, or slightly less pain for more time. Hard to say if one is better than the other, especially given Edwards feelings about the whole situation. If I had to make the choice for someone I loved I don't know what I would do. I think Edward would want to do whatever he thought Bella wanted at this point, since he seems to have realized that what is best for her is out of his control. So I guess the real question is, what would Bella have preferred?

I agree with those who are saying that Edward knew Bella was in a lot of pain, if not exactly how much, but just didn't make a big deal about it. I think the reasons for this are different than what other have mentioned though. I think Edward didn't question Bella's downplaying the pain because:
1) He knows Bella and he understands now that she would say or do anything to prevent him from feeling guilt or being upset over her (as we see in his words and reactions on the honeymoon). He probably expected her to lie about it to spare his feelings and didn't want to argue about it. What was he going to say? "God damn it Bella, I KNOW you were in extreme pain!!! ADMIT IT!!!"? I can't see him doing that....
2) He was just so happy that she was alive. After all that had occurred during the pregnancy and the birth, I'm sure Edward was more relieved than anything that Bella had lived. I don't think he didn't care that she had been in pain, I just think he would have considered that better than the alternative. Her pain would torture him, but he could live though it... her death, well... that would have been unbearable for him, as we have already seen.

I always admired Bella for her behavior during the changing process. The fact that she was able to remain still and quiet though it all with the knowledge that her transformation could have been more painful than any other vampire to date just makes me admire her more. Edward always knew Bella was very brave... this feat proves it as far as I am concerned. :D

Thanks for all the awesome questions everyone! I'm trying my best to keep up with them all!
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Re: Edward Cullen #3

Post by eclipserox » Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:42 pm

malaz wrote:
eclipserox wrote:And, if he did pick up on the pain, he may not know the origins. It could have been Edward's pain at possibly having hurt Bella. Another thought: Jasper sense EMOTIONS. Bella was feeling PHYSICAL pain, not necessarily emotional pain. She was emotionally worried about Nessie. Would Jasper even sense physical pain? I don't know that he would.
Pain is an emotion - whether it physical, emotional or mental - i don't think there's much of a distinction. It's like hearing your own thoughts in your mind as you think them and hearing your voice as you speak - both different but ultimately the same thing because you HEAR it. Pain, in whichever of the three (physical, emotional...etc..), you FEEL it - all the same just in effect of different things. Whether Jasper felt Bella's emotions or not is the not the case - I am not even sure Jasper was in Bella's presence during the transformation.

However, my point is Edward knew of Bella's pain. He's a smart man, no one can doubt that. EVEN if i was in his position, i would not have believed Bella. The thing is, you have to guess and check. And I feel Edward did that - he's very analytical, and aware of his surroundings and he's especially in tune with Bella regardless of her mental mute - he's aware of her every action, facial expression, etc. - wow that sounds a bit weird, but it's not like that. However, my point - venom is strong, and capable of evaporating blood - what would make Edward think it wouldn't get rid of the morphine? All i am saying is that those thoughts have occurred to Edward but despite it he wants to believe Bella.

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I think there is a difference between physical and emotional pain. It feels very different to be in physical pain when you break a bone or something than to be in emotional pain (e.g. losing a loved one.) One is literally physical, and hurts wherever you have been physically harmed. The other is all emotional. You don't actually hurt anywhere physically, but you feel a different kind of pain. SM has never said whether or not Jasper can sense physical pain. We do know that he can sense emotional pain. He could tell Bella was in pain when they were in the hotel room in AZ in Twilight. But, you're right, it doesn't matter because I'm pretty sure Jasper wasn't in the room during Bella's transformation.

I'm sure Edward wondered whether or not Bella was in pain. But, I don't know why he wouldn't believe her. Bella was generally very honest with Edward. And, Edward didn't act very concerned after she woke up and said she was OK. Normally, Edward would agonize over any potential negatives. This time, he seemed genuinely happy. This is one of the questions none of us will be able to KNOW the answer without a doubt. Only SM would know.

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Re: Edward Cullen #3

Post by Jazz Girl » Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:42 pm

Wow, everyone. Thanks for the great thoughts. I said I would hold off on my own thoughts until I read some of yours. You definitely gave me a lot to think about. As for my own thoughts on this rather heart-stopping, idea, here you go;
I suppose I should start with a clarification, something I accidentally left out. SM indicated that injecting more venom into the system doesn't speed up the transformation, just makes it more painful. The average transformation takes 3 days, but it can take slightly more or less, depending on differnt things. I think the reason Bella's took less is because she had so much less blood in her system, having lost so much during Renesmee's violent birth. Please do not mistake me. In no way do I think Edward did anything he thought would hurt Bella in any way. I absolutely believe that he did what he did specifically to try to cause her as little pain as possible, and to save her life. I just think that he was acting on faulty information. At one point, just after she is transformed, when she tells Edward and Carlisle she doesn't remember the transformation, she has a bit of an errant thought about the last time she had had both morphine and venom in her system. Even before the birth, when they were planning how to deliver Renesmee and transform Bella, she lied about whether the morphine helped. I don't fault her for it at all. In fact I admire her greatly for it. They had passed the point of no return, and she was determined to cause Edward as little pain as possible. So, she let him believe that he had figured out how to anesthtize her against the venom.
I do believe the Edward might have done a few things differently, if he'd known these facts. By no means do I think he wouldn't have turned Bella. No way. They had struck their bargain, and he also knew without a shadow of a doubt that he wouldn't have a choice, she would be on her deathbed. The syringe of venom to the heart was brilliant. Just like administering atropine directly to the heart when the heart stops beating, I think this kick started the transformation process. But, I think, if he realized more venom equaled more pain, he might have stopped there, injecting her but not biting her, and then just focusing on cpr, keeping her heart beating to circulate the venom until it repaired enough of the damage.
Cymbrelynn, an interesting point about Jasper giving away that Bella was hiding her pain. I am not sure. I don't think Jasper sees pictures or visual images, like Alice. He would just have a mental impression of the feelings. So, yes, he would sense the pain/anxiety, but it would be easily attributeable to the transformation process, not that she was hiding it. And, yes, I absolutely think Edward knew she was in pain. But, I think he didn't realize how much pain, nor that she was conscious of it. The body can be in pain, whether we are conscious or not to experience it. That is what Edward fears, Bella's experiencing pain. That's why, I think, Bella locked herself down so as not to reveal she was conscious of the pain. As she says, the pain in his voice is only because he feared she was in pain. If he had known how much pain she was in, he would have been on his knees. It would have been the burning man all over again.
Finally, I can't say it changes my way of thinking about Bella's silence. But, it reinforces for me that, despite Bella's short comings and those moments when I seriously question her sanity, she loves Edward beyond all else. To endure what she endured to give him the small measure of comfort she did was just amazing.
Again, thanks all for your fantastic comments.
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R If James’ venom had been allowed to spread e: Edward Culle

Post by roseaurora » Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:40 am

This is out of the PC... I get the impression that lots of deliberate, well placed bites does make it better. If it was small it would take longer to get to her heart and drag out the pain as it got there. In the end, no matter how much venom is used, the pain is ultimately the same. And that Carlisle took longer because they weren't well placed, and if they are, then it can take as few as 2 days. At least, that is the impression that I got...

Q: If someone’s bitten with loads of venom right by the heart, how quick is the conversion and is it more painful than a regular conversion? Were some of the Cullen’s transformations worse than others?

A: About the conversion process… If there is a lot of venom in the human’s system, the pain is more intense to begin with. Like fire, the venom burns through the body. So, with fire in more places, there is more pain at the outset. When Bella was bitten by James, the fire was only in her hand. Painful enough, but not as bad as if she had several bites. Of course, this is only at the outset. If James’ venom had been allowed to spread through Bella, it would have over time made its way through her whole system, and the pain eventually would have been just as intense as if she’d been deliberately infected with multiple, well-placed bites (jugular, wrists, ankles, etc.). So, all that early pain as the venom wound through her system is extra–an added portion of pain that doesn’t in anyway cut down the time or the intensity of the greater pain. The greatest pain begins when the venom is all the way through the body, through the heart, and it starts meeting itself in the veins again and then burning them dry. It moves slower than blood because it’s thicker. Each beat of the heart can only push it so far. The changing/burning process is slow. The venom has to leak through to every cell before it ends. It took Carlisle a little more than three days because his bites were not deliberate or well-placed. It can be as short as two.
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Re: Edward Cullen #3

Post by ariadnee » Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:41 am

I've been holding back a little, just reading up on people's thoughts - everyone has very strong opinions on this subject!
Jazz Girl wrote:As she says, the pain in his voice is only because he feared she was in pain. If he had known how much pain she was in, he would have been on his knees. It would have been the burning man all over again.
I agree with Jazz Girl on this one. Yes, he's smart enough to figure out how much she might have been hiding the extent of the pain she was in, no doubt, but I think he doesn't, for whatever reason. Probably too much on his mind (father to a completely new type of being, wife undergoing transformation, Jacob imprinting on said daughter...lots to worry about.)

I don't think that Jasper was anywhere near the birth. Given his difficulty with blood, he wouldn't have been able to be near it. Afterwards...while she was burning, well it's possible that he would have come through. We know that Alice was in there at some point (to get Bella changed.) I spoke to my husband (a psychologist) about whether pain was an emotion (he's familiar with Jasper, so I posed the question of could Jasper tell whether someone near him was in pain.) He seemed to think the answer was yes - not that pain was an emotion, but that it's nearly impossible for a human to feel pain, and not have some sort of corresponding emotional response - like shock, fear, anger, or sadness (or some combination of the above). It might be hard for Jasper to know whether Bella would remember feeling such emotions though. If she felt them subconsciously during the transformation, but then forgot them, would it matter?

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Re: Edward Cullen #3

Post by edward4ever » Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:10 am

Jazz Girl wrote:
SM indicated that injecting more venom into the system doesn't speed up the transformation, just makes it more painful.

That's actually an incorrect statement. This is what SM said in the PC's:
roseaurora wrote: Q: If someone’s bitten with loads of venom right by the heart, how quick is the conversion and is it more painful than a regular conversion? Were some of the Cullen’s transformations worse than others?

A: About the conversion process… If there is a lot of venom in the human’s system, the pain is more intense to begin with. Like fire, the venom burns through the body. So, with fire in more places, there is more pain at the outset. When Bella was bitten by James, the fire was only in her hand. Painful enough, but not as bad as if she had several bites. Of course, this is only at the outset. If James’ venom had been allowed to spread through Bella, it would have over time made its way through her whole system, and the pain eventually would have been just as intense as if she’d been deliberately infected with multiple, well-placed bites (jugular, wrists, ankles, etc.). So, all that early pain as the venom wound through her system is extra–--an added portion of pain that doesn’t in anyway cut down the time or the intensity of the greater pain.[/b] The greatest pain begins when the venom is all the way through the body, through the heart, and it starts meeting itself in the veins again and then burning them dry. It moves slower than blood because it’s thicker. Each beat of the heart can only push it so far. The changing/burning process is slow. The venom has to leak through to every cell before it ends. It took Carlisle a little more than three days because his bites were not deliberate or well-placed. It can be as short as two.
What that means is that if they had allowed James' bite to spread and turn her into a vampire, it would have taken the full 3 days, probably longer....because it was one solitary bite. She would have been in pain longer, waiting for every cell in her body to be transformed....slowly. The intense/maximum pain would have lasted just as long, but the slow building pain would have been excruciatingly long because of only the one bite.

By Edward injecting her heart and then biting pulse points, he brought the intense/maximum pain to the forefront much faster. That intense pain still lasted as long as the intense pain does on everyone but he got her to it faster because of the multiple bites/heart injection.

He did the right thing. What he didn't know is that the morphine had absolutely no effect on the pain. He knew she was still in pain, but hoped it wasn't as bad as it was for him.

Thanks roseaurora for doing the legwork for me :D ....I couldn't find it, but I knew it was being misinterpreted. ;)
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